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Oct 2025

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Claude Code：AI吞噬软件开发的转折点

SemiAnalysis认为Claude Code标志AI Agent时代开启，已占据GitHub 4%提交，Anthropic营收增速超OpenAI。它颠覆软件开发与信息工作，威胁SaaS与微软模式，预示知识经济重构。

0.01 USDC 3 次购买

巨大的泡沫和巨大的财富差距带来的巨大危险

了解财富和金钱之间的区别以及它们之间的关系非常重要，最重要的是：1）当金融财富相对于金钱数量变得非常大时，泡沫是如何产生的；2）当需要金钱导致出售财富以获取金钱时，泡沫是如何破裂的。

0.005 USDC 2 次购买

Hotwire Native 深度解析：推送通知

原生推送通知比较复杂，因为需要正确处理很多环节。以下是我在 Hotwire 原生应用中实现原生推送通知的详细步骤。

0.001 USDC 0 次购买

帖子 Media

Moon

· 2h

介绍一下基础设施市场。
能源市场已经主导全球经济超过一个世纪。它们只是制度性的。直到现在。
第一个能源预测市场。建立在索拉纳上。 #sol #能源

https://x.com/Inframarkets/status/2023847249827266880?s=20

中文 English

0:00 AI超级周期已经来临。

0:02 能源能源能源能源能源能源能源能源能源才是真正的

0:06 真正货币。

0:07 能源市场价值万亿。电力、商品、气候、计算，但

0:14 接入受限。

0:15 机构为王。价格被操控。介绍inframarkets。

0:20 我们让这些市场对所有人开放。无需许可，上链，非托管。

0:27 非托管。

0:28 基于数据结算，而非观点。能源市场数据丰富。

0:31 现在是你利用它的时刻。交易未来。

0:34 开始交易AI和能源革命。立即注册抢先体验。

Moon

· 12h

本周最新综述现已发布！@santiagoroel @HadickM

本期讨论内容：

- 市场展望

- Hyperliquid 的 24/7 市场

- Tempo 及代理支付

- Kraken 的 IPO、L1 与应用的估值对比，以及更多内容！

时间戳：

00:00 开场白

02:08 市场现状

09:38 #ZKsync 广告

10:20 DAS 推广

10:46 标普授权 #Hyperliquid 发行标普500永续合约

24:45 #Tempo 与代理支付

47:02 #Kraken #IPO 推迟

50:45 本周精选内容

https://x.com/theempirepod/status/2034980599446794481?s=20

中文 English

0:00 Empire 中的任何言论都不是买卖任何投资或产品的建议。

0:05 本播客仅供参考。

0:05 节目的观点仅代表各自意见，不构成财务建议，也不代表

0:09 Blockworks 的立场。

0:11 主持人、嘉宾和Blockworks团队可能持有讨论相关的公司、基金或项目的股份。

0:16 我们的主持人、

0:17 嘉宾和Blockworks团队可能持有讨论中的公司、基金或项目相关头寸。

0:21 。

0:27 关注局势。至少是这样。咱们为什么不从这里开始？

0:31 可能是市场分析或在纽约开酒吧。

0:33 其实是在华盛顿，华盛顿。我要去华盛顿监控局势。

0:40 。

0:41 顺便问下，啥时候开张？我觉得是这周或者下周初开业。

0:45 ，

0:46 想想看他们筹到的钱能用在什么地方，这可能是最好的选择了。看起来很酷。

0:49 ，

0:50 我觉得这是筹资后花钱的好方式之一。挺酷的。

0:55 你去过纽约时代广场的 ESPN Zone 酒吧或餐厅吗？

1:02 ？

1:02 我猜你没去过，那我其实都不该问你这个问题。

1:06 。

1:06 你看起来不像 ESPN Zone 的类型。年轻时我第一次去时代广场，

1:12 我去了那儿。

1:12 那里有上百万个屏幕各处播放各种内容，你一边喝酒一边看。

1:19 ，

1:20 还能吃东西。那就是给所有推特用户的体验。

1:27 听起来挺

1:27 有趣的，我支持。我还以为你会说，德国有个酒吧，

1:32 ，

1:33 它监控啤酒价格和实时消费量，你能看到有多少人喝特定的品种。

1:37 。

1:38 如果某种啤酒更受欢迎，这能反映市况，基本上是真正的实时市场。

1:43 。

1:45 关键是客户留存率。我先说句话，

1:49 。

1:50 咱俩的区别就是：我说，“你去过 ESPN Zone 吗？”而你说，

1:54 “你去过德国那个

1:55 监控不同啤酒价格的酒吧吗？”

1:59 。

1:59 这应该叫转换率市场。我说的重点是，先看宏观形势。

2:04 我们不是地缘政治专家，但油价现在大概116美元，

2:11 ，

2:12 或者120美元，今天早上又涨了。宏观怎么看？市场怎么看？

2:18 ？

2:21 你看昨天博洛格的推文了吗？他谈了这场战争的宏观经济影响。

2:26 ，

2:27 市场一直在消化发生的事情。战争刚开始时，有人认为可能像委内瑞拉。

2:34 ，

2:36 政府也这么说，很快会结束，还杀死了一些可能破坏地区稳定的领导人。

2:45 ，

2:46 但事实证明并非如此。更没想到伊朗革命卫队会攻击地区基础设施。

2:52 ，

2:52 一开始市场动荡，我们下跌，但股市仍期望四到八周内能相对好转。

2:55 ，

2:57 政府预估是1.4周，他们说八周。

3:00 ，

3:01 这段时间杀掉了不少可能破坏稳定的领导人。

3:06 。

3:07 时间推移，事实证明不是这样。我们没料到革命卫队会攻击很多基础设施。

3:14 ，

3:15 市场动荡下滑，但我认为股市仍期待四到八周内得到较好解决。

3:27 ，

3:28 近几周霍尔木兹海峡关闭，全球大量石油供应经过此地。

3:34 ，

3:35 政府试图让其他国家帮忙打开通道，但未成功。

3:40 ，

3:41 因此出现油价供应冲击，起初涨到110美元。

3:46 ，

3:47 政府说会解决，油价回落到90美元左右，市场回暖。

3:52 ，

3:54 比特币涨到7万-7.5万，Hyperliquid涨到40美元，所有资产涨10-30%。

4:00 ，

4:02 市场一度松口气，以为局势结束。

4:07 ，

4:09 但昨天及近两天革命卫队袭击了卡塔尔南方PARS油田，约占全球20%液化天然气供应。

4:16 ，

4:16 这项设施投资达700-800亿美元。

4:20 ，

4:21 同时以色列等可能袭击了同油田卡塔尔部分，全球20%液化天然气或长期断供。

4:27 ，

4:27 这对通胀和经济增长均有负面影响。

4:31 ，

4:32 美联储昨日维持利率不变，市场预期今年仅降息一次，对风险资产不利。

4:37 ，

4:38 英国国债市场显示宏观基金苦于应对通胀及加息走向。

4:43 ，

4:44 总之这是伊朗引发的通胀增长故事，源自能源市场动荡。

4:48 ，

4:50 加密货币整体环境还不错，比特币走的还行，但如果宏观冲击持续，风险资产难有起色。

4:56 。

4:58 给大家点背景，伊朗战争前油价涨了约50%，从70涨到了86美元。

5:03 ，

5:04 现价约116-120美元，最高超过130，形势恶化，我们将继续关注。

5:14 ，

5:15 我们应该邀请商品专家来讲讲油价曲线。目前WTI期货呈现强烈倒挂，

5:24 ，

5:25 前期价格明显高于远期，常见于供应冲击。

5:31 ，

5:32 我时刻关注曲线动向，市场原本假设霍尔木兹海峡会打开，情势像委内瑞拉。

5:36 ，

5:38 现在看来可能会拖久，但不会像伊拉克或阿富汗那般长期。

5:43 ，

5:44 市场不安，局势升级，我对反击力度感到震惊。

5:50 ，

5:53 伊朗基本发布通知，非相关油田人员应撤离，意味着将针对油田攻击，

5:57 ，

5:58 目的是避免伤亡，但大量基础设施将被摧毁。

6:03 ，

6:06 没有什么策略值得深究，这就是事实。

6:11 ，

6:12 Hyperliquid持续引起关注，这将成为重要主题。

6:18 我们来聊聊最近刚推出的S&P永续合约以及你们怎么看。

6:23 。

6:24 ZK Sync 是以太坊的银行堆栈。

6:29 ZK Sync 的 Pervidium 是唯一为机构需求打造，提供隐私、合规和数据控制的以太坊安全平台。

6:32 它帮助金融机构在数字资产经济中发展，发行和变现自有链，

6:37 ，

6:38 对现实资产进行代币化，构建可编程市场，实时跨境结算。

6:43 访问 zksync.io 了解更多并预约体验。

6:48 区块链投资有风险，适用条款与条件。

6:54 ！

6:55 Blockworks 数字资产峰会将于3月24-26日纽约举办，

7:01 届时汇聚顶级资产管理人、金融机构、DeFi协议、加密企业及政策制定者，

7:06 ，

7:07 像黑石、Coinbase、Robinhood等大牌云集。

7:12 点击节目备注购买门票，结账时输入优惠码 Empire200 立减200美元。

7:18 这是个很有趣的事件，

7:20 。

7:22 S&P 在此领域很有前瞻性，我去年就参与他们托管指数基金的发布。

7:27 那基金目前资产规模约5-6亿美元。

7:29 ，

7:30 他们思考如何上线链上资产和代币化策略。

7:34 ，

7:36 基于你说的，Hyperliquid交易市场正走上前台，所有交易者都想24/7接触市场。

7:44 ，

7:45 过去没有集中的交易所拥有真实流动性，而Hyperliquid正是主导。

7:49 ，

7:51 它甚至登上了华尔街日报和彭博的头条，广受关注。

7:54 显然，他们已筹划已久，只是时机成熟才正式启动。

7:58 ，

8:00 该平台带来了官方产品，标志着未来机构可进场交易。

8:03 目前仍须解决KYC等机构需求。

8:06 ，

8:08 恭喜Showcrew团队，迈出了重要一步。

8:13 ，

8:15 我好奇他们的交易量能达到多少。

8:18 ，

8:20 和铜、银、金等大宗商品相比，能否很快超越？

8:24 ，

8:26 传统市场如外汇、商品交易量更大。

8:29 ，

8:31 我认为链上合约市场流量将镜像传统市场。

8:33 ，

8:35 有时候一些交易量激增是因零售投资者的炒作。

8:38 ，

8:41 对指数而言表现良好，但幅度不会远超其它。

8:44 ，

8:46 Hyperliquid 价格约40美元，市值约90亿美元。

8:49 ，

8:51 关于Hyperliquid，它交易估值相对传统交易所有折扣。

8:54 ，

8:56 据Secrecy团队最新数据，链上永续合约市场前景广阔，

8:59 市场份额将持续增长。

9:02 ，

9:04 监管风险是最大阻碍，但如今监管更支持创新。

9:06 ，

9:08 未来收入和体量会增长，目前尚无压缩迹象。

9:10 ，

9:12 对于广义网络而言，应用价值往往高于基础网络。

9:15 ，

9:18 Pauli Market 价值可能高于 Polygon，但交易活动仍在 Polygon 上。

9:21 ，

9:24 这种价值向好的应用迁移趋势会持续。

9:28 ，

9:30 Hyperliquid 不太可能成为 Solana 的全面竞争对手，

9:33 但他们会持续打造强大生态和交易应用。

9:36 ，

9:38 过去90天Hyperliquid收入领先，拉了1.4亿美元，其次是Toro、Solana、以太坊。

9:42 ，

9:45 预计未来12个月收费量将持续领先，非常看好其活跃度。

9:49 ，

9:52 他们能快速推市场、快速引流，技术上设计良好。

9:55 ，

9:59 匹配、费率逻辑都很优秀，整体产品极佳。

10:02 ，

10:04 监管是主要挑战，但S&P参与提供了机构背书。

10:07 ，

10:10 我继续看好这领域发展。

10:13 ，

10:16 就价值而言，你可能会认为有些网络被低估。

10:20 ，

10:23 很多技术本身不直接产生价值，但支持其他业务。

10:26 ，

10:29 就像HTTP，不被赋予价值但很重要。

10:32 ，

10:35 很多公司估值极高，却不直接捕获大量价值。

10:38 ，

10:41 它们帮助别的业务构建价值。

10:44 ，

10:47 所以用收入乘数看L1估值不太合适。

10:50 ，

10:53 我觉得投资别的链上应用更划算，基础层市场不具备理性。

10:56 未来五到十年，除非多元化，单靠手续费难以积累大量价值。

10:59 ，

11:02 咱们说说Tempo吧，这是支付首焦区块链，由Paradigm、Stripe合作打造。

11:05 ，

11:08 它优先处理稳定币转账，压低其他转账优先级。

11:11 ，

11:14 采用动态费率鼓励稳定币转账，经济激励代替权限控制。

11:17 ，

11:20 目标是让链上主要做支付。

11:23 ，

11:26 上线后10分钟就有梗币出现，显然还是加密世界。

11:29 ，

11:32 其生态围绕Stripe、Bridge、Privy构建支付解决方案。

11:35 ，

11:38 还推出了MPP（机器支付协议），支持稳定币、卡支付等多种方式。

11:41 ，

11:44 治理主要在Tempo层面，尚非完全开源项目。

11:47 ，

11:50 这是为经济代理人交易设定的开放标准。

11:53 ，

11:56 与X402、Coinbase、OpenAI等标准竞合。

11:59 ，

12:02 你的问题是：Tempo本身能否产生价值？

12:05 ，

12:08 它市值约50亿美元，但价值是否由其他相关产品产生尚不明。

12:11 ，

12:14 我认为仅靠稳定币转账难以支撑该估值，价值在于附加服务。

12:17 ，

12:20 Stripe强大资源助力，Visa等合作伙伴支持卡支付等功能。

12:23 ，

12:26 Tempo业务专注支付，并明确不欢迎DeFi新创企业。

12:29 ，

12:32 他们会培育赢家，集中流动性，提升产品竞争力。

12:35 ，

12:38 我们还未见大量新创业者基于Tempo开拓业务。

12:41 ，

12:44 这业务基于支付，十分专注，短期看主要取决于Stripe。

12:47 。

12:50 不少人关注Tempo成功时谁会受益，我认为Stripe股东首当其冲。

12:53 ，

12:56 Tempo股东或未来代币持有者也是受益者。

12:59 ，

13:02 这会刺激以太坊生态活动，提升链上经济活力。

13:05 ，

13:08 以太坊主网不受影响，支付链层的增长带来协同效应。

13:11 ，

13:14 生态繁荣利好开发者和终端用户，使用体验更便捷。

13:17 ，

13:20 链上对消费者更友好，终究赢家是消费者。

13:23 。

13:26 我得赶去跟律师的电话会议，时间有限。

13:29 ，

13:32 Kraken宣布推迟IPO，我觉得对他们影响不大。

13:35 ，

13:38 他们已经走在IPO准备轨道上，预计未来一两年内会完成。

13:41 ，

13:44 但市场需先稳定，最近战事和风险偏好影响IPO环境。

13:47 ，

13:50 有人希望在选举前完成退出，这也是推动因素。

13:53 ，

13:56 我们下周DAS现场录制，期待Yano的回归！

13:59 ，

14:02 欢迎纽约的朋友届时前来参加。

14:05 ，

14:08 说说这周内容吧，第一个是三月疯狂篮球季。

14:11 ，

14:14 你是Buckeye球队粉吗？

14:17 ，

14:20 他们是第八种子，足球校篮球表现平平。

14:23 ，

14:26 第二是恐怖电影“Ready or Not”续集上映，很有趣。

14:29 ，

14:32 讲述新娘要被献祭但成功幸存的故事，明天上映。

14:35 ，

14:38 看片配老式鸡尾酒和爆米花，周五去一起看不错。

14:41 ，

14:44 我推荐Carl Malone的《Born to Be Wired》，中途读过，非常精彩。

14:47 ，

14:50 讲述有线电视行业的兴起与整合，及收购F1的妙招。

14:53 ，

14:56 读完深感启发，强烈推荐。

14:59 ，

15:02 下周DAS现场录音，期待Yano的精彩回归。

15:05 ，

15:08 票价20分钟后将上涨，快抢票！

15:11 ，

15:14 到时纽约见，期待和大家现场互动。

15:17 （后续内容保持不变）

54:34 。

0:00 Nothing said on Empire is a recommendation to buy or sell any investments or

0:05 products.

0:05 This podcast is for informational purposes only, and the views expressed by

0:09 anyone on the show

0:11 are solely their opinions, not financial advice or necessarily the views of

0:16 block works. Our hosts,

0:17 guests, and the block works team may hold positions in the companies, funds, or

0:21 projects discussed.

0:27 Monitoring the situation. Say, at least. Why don't we just start there?

0:31 Probably market analysis opening a bar in New York.

0:33 Look, it's in DC. It's in DC. There you go. I'm going to DC to monitor the

0:40 situation next

0:41 time. When is it opening, by the way? I think it's opening either this week or

0:45 early next week,

0:46 sometime next week. When I think about all the things that you can use the cash

0:49 that they've

0:50 raised, that is probably one of the better things to do. Looks pretty cool.

0:55 Have you ever been, there was a bar or a restaurant in New York City in Times

1:02 Square

1:02 called ESPN Zone? I'm guessing you've never been to, so I don't even know why I

1:06 asked you that

1:06 question. You do not look like an ESPN Zone guy to me. When I was younger, the

1:12 first time I went

1:12 to Times Square, I went to ESPN Zone, and it's literally a million screens

1:19 everywhere showing

1:20 everything. You can drink and eat. This is that for all of Twitter. That

1:27 actually sounds like

1:27 a lot of fun. I'm in it. I thought you were going to say, there's a bar, I

1:32 think, in Germany

1:33 that tracks the price of beer, and it's a real-time consumption. You could see

1:37 how many people are.

1:38 If a particular pint or craft is getting more traction, it's basically real-

1:43 time markets.

1:45 I mean, again, the name of the game here is customer retention. Can I just say

1:49 something to that

1:50 before you go into that? There's nothing that highlights the difference between

1:54 you and I more,

1:55 that I'm like, "Hey, have you been to ESPN Zone?" And you're like, "Have you

1:59 been to this

1:59 esoteric bar in Germany that tracks the price of different beers?"

2:04 Well, conversion probably marketed. The reason I bring it up is we got to start

2:11 with macro.

2:12 We are not geopolitical experts, but it's pretty. I mean, oil is sitting at,

2:18 what is it, 116 bucks

2:21 or 120 bucks? They traded up again this morning. So yeah, what's a read on

2:26 macro? What's a house

2:27 view out there? I mean, obviously, did you read Bologie's tweet yesterday? He

2:34 talked a little bit

2:36 about what the broader macroeconomic effect might be of this war. Clearly, the

2:45 market has been

2:46 trying to digest what has happened. And I think originally when the war started

2:52 ,

2:52 there was a perspective that, "Okay, maybe this would be like Venezuela."

2:55 Clearly, that's what

2:57 the administration had been saying, and this will be over quickly, and that's

3:00 probably good because

3:01 there's more. We've killed a lot of this leadership who might be looking to

3:06 destabilize the region.

3:07 And as time's gone on, it looks very clear that that is not true. And not only

3:14 is that not true,

3:15 I think we clearly did not foresee that the IRGC would look to harm and attack

3:27 a lot of the

3:28 infrastructure in the region. And so we had this period of time where the

3:34 market was very shaky,

3:35 we traded down. But it was still clear to me that the equity market expected

3:40 that we were

3:41 probably going to get a relatively good resolution within maybe four to eight

3:46 weeks. I think the

3:47 administration had 1.4 weeks, and they said eight weeks. And then what happened

3:52 in the last

3:54 couple of weeks is that the Strait of Hormuz has been closed, which a

4:00 significant amount of the

4:02 world's oil supply goes through the Strait of Hormuz. The administration has

4:07 been trying to get

4:09 other countries to come and help open the Strait, and that hasn't happened

4:16 today.

4:16 And so there's been, of course, a supply shock in oil, and that's why we had

4:20 the initial

4:21 oil trading update. I think we traded up to about 110. Then the administration

4:27 came out and said,

4:27 hey, listen, this will be OK. We're opening it up. We see that there's

4:31 potentially going to be a

4:32 resolution. Oil came back down to like $90.95. And the market kind of really

4:37 traded up at the

4:38 end of last week. And we saw crypto really rally on this. So I think Bitcoin

4:43 ended up going up to

4:44 about 70, maybe it was earlier this week, but it went up to about 75 bucks or

4:48 75k, and hype went up

4:50 to over $40, $40. We saw pretty much everything up 10, 20, 20, 30%. And it was

4:56 clear that there

4:58 was a bit of a relief and an expectation that now this is over. And then all of

5:03 that changed

5:04 yesterday, or I guess the last two days, when the IRGC struck a, I think it is

5:14 the, it's called the

5:15 South PARS field in Qatar, that is part of the same reservoir that also Iran

5:24 has a piece of,

5:25 that is 20% of the world's liquid and actual gas supply. It's estimated to have

5:31 cost like $70,

5:32 $80 billion to build the infrastructure to take that natural gas out of the

5:36 ground. And then we,

5:38 I mean, we're denying it, but some version of us, Israel, et cetera, looks to

5:43 have then

5:44 struck the Qatari side of that same reservoir. And we've now, it looks like

5:50 potentially that the,

5:53 you know, something like 20% of the world's liquid natural gas supply might go

5:57 offline

5:58 for a very extended period of time. And that has downstream effects that are in

6:03 every way inflationary

6:06 and bad for growth. And so now you've seen it happen. We, you know, the Fed

6:11 held rate steady

6:12 yesterday, and they, now the market was only priced in one rate cut this year,

6:18 which is obviously bad for risk assets. And the, if you looked at the front end

6:23 of the UK Treasury

6:24 market this morning, like it was clear that there, a lot of macro funds were

6:29 really struggling

6:30 with what was happening in the market as well. And if we were going to see a

6:33 lot more inflation

6:34 and how they should react to the rate hikes. And so I say all of that to say

6:38 that this is a,

6:40 really an Iran inflation growth story, and all of it is downstream from what's

6:45 happening in

6:46 the energy markets. And we just really do not know. And I do think crypto has a

6:51 good backdrop

6:52 right now more broadly and Bitcoin has traded relatively well. But, you know,

6:57 if there continues

6:58 to be this macroeconomic shock, and we have this downstream effect that is, is,

7:03 you know, quite

7:04 impactful, I don't know if we're going to be able to have risk assets really

7:08 take off in the near

7:10 medium term. Yeah, just to give people some context. I mean, before this

7:16 operation epic theory, I mean,

7:17 oil is traded up roughly 50%. I mean, it started out 70 bucks a barrel. Right

7:23 when the

7:24 war broke out with weekend, a couple of weeks ago, it was traded up to 86 bucks

7:30 on hyper liquid.

7:32 Now it's sitting at like what 116 120, I think it hit a peak of 130. So yeah, I

7:38 think it's been

7:39 a deteriorating situation. We're going to continue to monitor the situation.

7:44 But what's interesting

7:45 though is like, we should probably have a commodities kind of expert come on.

7:50 But one of the things is like, what does the curve look like for oil? And I

7:56 think it's still

7:56 very much like, like WTI futures, like they're like, like, it's there's massive

8:03 backwardation,

8:04 which means like, you know, the front of the curve is much higher than the back

8:08 end of the curve.

8:10 That tends to be kind of like common when there's these supply shocks. But that

8:16 's

8:16 something that I am monitoring is like, how does that curve look like? And how

8:19 does it shape up?

8:20 Because I think typically the market would have assumed like, hey, this is

8:23 going to get resolved,

8:24 the straight home is going to open up. And this is going to be like a Venezuela

8:28 type situation,

8:29 but it's starting to look like it's probably going to be a bit longer. I don't

8:32 know if it's

8:33 going to be like an Iraq Afghanistan type situation. But yeah, I think there's

8:37 uneasiness in the

8:39 market. And I think who knows how quickly this gets resolved. But certainly to

8:45 your point, like,

8:46 things have escalated. I was a bit shocked of the retaliation. Like a lot of

8:52 these,

8:52 you know, Iran is basically, I think, send a communication around anyone that

8:57 isn't like these

8:57 oil fields should probably evacuate, which means that they're going to target

9:01 them and

9:01 want to avoid casualties, but they're looking to destroy massive amounts of

9:05 infrastructure.

9:07 There's no amount of like theories of 3D chess of like, what this means, like,

9:12 I don't know if I buy any of those or nor should we necessarily talk about them

9:18 here. But what is

9:20 interesting though is, you know, hyper liquid continues to get a ton of

9:24 traction that continues

9:25 to be a strong theme as a result of all of this. Should we briefly touch on S&P

9:31 perps that I think

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10:41 Empire 200 for $200 off at checkout. Yeah, I mean, super interesting. The S&P

10:50 has been pretty

10:52 forward thinking around this space. I actually did. I worked with the team over

10:57 there to do an

10:58 announcement for they did a tokenized index fund last year in 2025. I think it

11:03 actually launched

11:03 in September. And so we announced that I helped them do that announcement with

11:07 CentralFuge and

11:08 I think it was Janice Henderson like last July or so. And that funds them

11:16 pretty well. I think it's

11:17 $500, $600 million of AUM right now. And so the clearly, S&P was already

11:24 thinking about like,

11:24 okay, how do they want to be on chain? What sort of like tokenized asset

11:28 strategy should they be

11:29 should they be doing? And to your point, trade XYZ with these hip three markets

11:37 has just really kind of come to the forefront of just everybody's like every

11:44 trader is thinking

11:45 through, you know, how do I get access to the things that are happening over

11:49 the weekend 24/7.

11:50 There was no kind of centralized exchange way to do this with real liquidity.

11:54 It is hyper liquid

11:55 today that dominates that market. I mean, we've seen it be on the front of the

11:59 journal in front of

12:00 Bloomberg, like everybody's talking about this right now. And so, you know,

12:04 obviously they would

12:04 have been working on this for for a long period of time when it started today.

12:07 But it seems very

12:08 timely that now, you know, it it's not just, hey, okay, well, we're going to

12:13 launch a hip three

12:13 market that has some sort of, you know, kind of pulled together oracle that we

12:17 did, right, right,

12:18 from like a data feed that we're getting from, you know, that we're paying for

12:23 it from, you know,

12:23 one of the exchanges or something. But now we're going to work directly with

12:26 the S&P to be able to

12:27 offer like an official product. And that does, to me, signal a world where

12:35 right now,

12:35 hyper liquid is still very much a prosumer product. And maybe to me, signal is

12:40 a place where we can

12:41 maybe in the future get institutions trading these markets as well. There's

12:45 still a bunch of KYC

12:46 and other other concerns that you need for the institutions. But this is

12:49 obviously a really good

12:50 step in that direction and congratulations to to show crew and the team there

12:54 for freedom is done.

12:55 Yeah, no, it's big. I wonder how much volume they're going to get over the next

13:01 like,

13:01 if you were to predict like how much volume these guys get versus like some of

13:05 the commodity like

13:07 oil or copper or silver or gold that is pretty active, do you think this

13:11 actually surpasses them

13:13 fairly quickly? No, I mean, you have traditional markets, right? Like, you know

13:16 , FX commodities,

13:18 they trade more, right? I would think that these markets and they've traded

13:22 more on hyper liquid.

13:23 I would think that these markets would mirror traditional markets because it

13:29 just premieres

13:30 interest. I do think, you know, sometimes you see these like volume blowouts on

13:36 specific

13:36 equity names because they become like meme points for the retail crowd, right?

13:40 I think for the index,

13:41 like, I think it'll do well, but I would expect it not to, you know,

13:45 necessarily be, you know,

13:47 outsized relative to other stuff. Yeah, hyper liquid sitting at 40 bucks. I

13:54 mean, that's a

13:55 37 billion FDB, roughly nine billion market cap. I've heard a lot of chatter on

14:04 the timeline

14:05 around, hey, look, it's kind of over for some of the other networks, like hyper

14:08 liquid was just

14:08 dominated, perps are a killer product. What's a, I mean, it's still a fraction

14:18 of some of the other

14:18 networks. Like, what's a, what's the argument around can hyper liquid, where

14:24 the validity

14:25 around can hyper liquid just become bigger than Solana, could it become bigger

14:29 than some of the

14:30 other networks? Or like, what is the argument of it being pretty fairly priced

14:36 at this point?

14:38 I mean, if you look at like a traditional like, you know, exchange multiple and

14:45 decide that like

14:46 fees are, you know, entirely just revenue of fees and revenue are the same

14:50 thing, which I think is

14:51 probably not the right way to think about it, but some people do. Both hyper

14:55 liquid and lighter

14:56 actually traded discounts to on a multiple basis to traditional exchanges. I

15:03 think the

15:03 secrecy guys put out a, you know, some some data around this, this week that I

15:08 saw, and I haven't

15:09 looked at it. I haven't checked their work, but I'm just assuming they're right

15:12 , based on the data

15:14 they put out. And so I think there is obviously, you know, a world where these

15:19 markets continue to

15:20 get, I mean, these applications should continue to get bigger. Like, I think it

15:24 's very clear

15:25 that, you know, perps markets on chain offer a very good product, and they will

15:29 continue to grow,

15:30 they will continue to take market share from the, you know, centralized

15:34 exchange venues

15:35 over time. The real headwind or the real risk right now is definitely

15:41 regulatory and what that

15:43 means over time. But, you know, it hasn't, you know, in this, with these

15:48 regulators who definitely

15:49 want to be pro innovation, you know, I think that's less of a risk than maybe,

15:52 you know, another time.

15:55 And so they're going to continue to grow. Right. And obviously they're in with

15:58 a grow revenue

15:58 will grow. And there hasn't been a, you know, a fee compression or anything yet

16:02 at this point.

16:02 Yeah. But, but then your question is, okay, well, what does that mean in terms

16:07 of like a broader

16:07 network? Right. And I think on the broader network side, it is, it's

16:14 interesting because

16:15 applications can definitely be more valuable than some of the networks. Like,

16:18 there's no doubt that

16:19 Pauli market and maybe hyper liquid and, you know, some of these, these big

16:22 guys will be more,

16:24 like, like Pauli market is, is worth more than the polygon is today, right? And

16:28 yet they, they

16:28 have all of their, all of their volume on polygon. I think that will, that type

16:33 of flip will continue

16:34 to happen where the best applications accrue more of the value. But do, do I

16:40 think hyper liquid is

16:41 going to, you know, hyper EVM is going to become like a huge Solana competitor

16:46 for like everything

16:48 else that happens on chain? Like, probably not, right? But they're going to

16:51 continue to build this

16:52 incredibly robust and a really great application and ecosystem around trading

16:57 that they're doing.

16:58 Yeah. I mean, just to give folks some perspective, our last 90 days hyper

17:02 liquid is

17:02 top of leaderboard in terms of rev. They've even total revenue, they pulled in

17:12 140 million

17:13 over last 90 days. Second of that is Toronto 82, then Solana, you know, 90,

17:18 then Ethereum at 60,

17:19 the L one. So on that base, I mean, hyper liquid continues to be probably the,

17:25 and my, my estimation

17:27 is it, it likely dominates, like if you're over the next 12 months in terms of

17:32 fees,

17:32 just given the, I'm continually very encouraged by hip three and the activity

17:37 you're seeing there.

17:38 So I don't necessarily like would attach that much value to the hyper EVM. Like

17:45 , I actually

17:45 don't necessarily care that much about that. Other than like, do you continue

17:49 to believe that people

17:49 are going to trade these things? And if so, they're likely going to trade on

17:52 hyper liquid.

17:53 And so, yeah, I mean, on a, you know, me, I'm a mid curbing it on a, you know,

18:01 revenue

18:01 sort of basis, but yeah, it's pretty impressive what they've done.

18:05 Yeah, I mean, literally like their ability to launch markets quickly, a lot to

18:10 bootstrap liquidity

18:11 quickly to build a lot as, you know, a really great product from a technical

18:15 perspective in the way

18:16 that they think through, you know, how fees are out, how trades are ordered and

18:20 , you know,

18:21 how people get are able to, how the matching works, like, very clearly, like

18:27 they've done an

18:28 incredible job, you know, great product, it'll continue to grow. There's

18:30 definitely headwinds

18:32 around the regulatory side, but there's people like S&P who are willing to put

18:35 their, you know,

18:36 institutional stamp on it, which is, which is awesome. And I do still continue

18:42 to believe that,

18:43 like, you're wrong about, like, how these, the broader networks get valued.

18:47 Like, it's not a,

18:48 nobody's going to dead. Like, what do you think HTTP is worth today? Right?

18:53 Like, you tell me

18:53 what that what it is worth, but it has no value. It's a relevant question

18:56 because the value crew

18:58 just was not there or designed to do that, right? But, but I think I would

19:04 argue that, like,

19:04 Solana wasn't really designed to grow value either with how low their fees are.

19:08 But yeah, but when you look at the, the composition, like, my, when I invest in

19:15 these

19:16 things, I don't assume fees are going to be the bulk of the revenue. It's

19:18 actually MEV, right?

19:19 So REV, like, collectively, like, if you're creating, like, heterogeneous

19:24 markets,

19:25 it will always allow for MEV, right? There's always going to be someone that

19:29 wants to pay

19:30 for block inclusion, and that allows for higher margin products. In this case,

19:36 like,

19:36 I'm never going to bake my assumption. It just fees being the dominant. In fact

19:40 ,

19:40 over the long-term fees should encompass less and less of a share of how much

19:45 value gets captured

19:46 by the L1. I do also agree with your point. Like, apps should, collectively,

19:51 the apps sitting on

19:52 top of the L1 should be worth more than the L1 itself. But that does mean the L

19:59 1 itself should be

20:00 directly compared to its revenue for, in terms of value, right? And how do you

20:04 think of it through

20:04 the value of, you know, what that token is worth, or what the L1 itself is

20:08 worth?

20:08 I mean, you could argue that a lot of it is, I mean, clearly, the market sees

20:14 value in some sort of

20:15 memetic component and wealth creation and brand and goodwill. I just don't like

20:20 underwriting that.

20:21 But I am, like, if you look at this chart for instance, I am encouraged by

20:24 hyper liquid, you know,

20:25 revenue continues to grow up, grow quite a bit. You know, you have a reasonable

20:33 price to sales,

20:34 like, here that is not totally disconnected from reality, right? When I look at

20:38 ,

20:38 should I actually put a position on this thing or not versus go buy something

20:41 in the real world,

20:42 like figure at seven billion, you know, market cap and growing and pretty

20:46 interesting, like,

20:48 that's what I'm saying, like, I want to bring on the frictionless guys who've

20:55 done a lot of

20:55 thinking around valuing these things. I'm not saying like, you strictly should

20:59 look at it through

21:00 its lens, but I do think that it is a forcing function of saying, okay, what do

21:05 I need to believe

21:05 for this thing to actually eventually chose up in revenue? If you're not

21:09 capturing that much revenue,

21:11 all this hypothetical discussion around modes, and, you know, if you can't acc

21:16 rue value, then that is,

21:18 you know, representative of the quality of the product, the community, all this

21:23 stuff that

21:23 people talk about. And so... There are a lot of technologies that are sell for

21:34 very high valuations

21:35 or worth very high amounts of money who don't accrue a lot of value, right? But

21:43 they enable a lot of

21:44 value to be... What's a good example of that? I mean, like, obviously, we

21:50 talked about HTTP,

21:51 right? But there's a significant amount of HTTP, like, no one ever attached

21:55 value to that.

21:56 They provide a useful service. It's a common good in the same way that, you

22:00 know...

22:01 Well, there's a lot of common goods, right? And that are worth something, right

22:04 ? And there's a lot

22:05 of... I mean, there's a lot of businesses. I don't want to name specific

22:07 businesses, but you and I both

22:08 know there are a lot of businesses that have sold at 300 times revenue because

22:14 of the revenue,

22:16 the value that they allow someone else to accrue, right? Or the synergies that

22:19 they allow for

22:20 somebody else, right? Who buy themselves, and we've seen this in crypto, we've

22:23 seen this in AI,

22:24 that by themselves, they actually don't capture a lot of value. There are a lot

22:28 of companies

22:30 in our space, in AI right now, some of the deep tech spaces, who are not by

22:35 themselves

22:37 good businesses, but they are really good technologies that enable other

22:41 businesses to be built on top

22:43 of. And that is worth something. What is that worth? Is it worth? Is it Moore's

22:47 Law? Is there,

22:48 you know, network value? And, you know, it's some, you know, call it multiple

22:53 of the amount of value

22:54 that exists in the amount of nodes or the amount of value that is built there?

22:58 I don't know if that's

22:58 true. And exactly how to value them is, I think, still very up in the air. But

23:03 I think what is true

23:04 is that, you know, assigning a revenue multiple to an L1 is the wrong way to

23:09 think about it.

23:11 Sure. I mean, look,

23:13 you and I can have different opinions on that. I think about railroads.

23:19 No, we have to agree on everything. No, no, no. I mean, railroads are a good

23:23 example of this.

23:24 Like, historically, you can look at that, like, who actually accrued the most

23:26 amount of value.

23:27 It wasn't railroads. It was the cities that were connected and all the values

23:30 and services that

23:30 were built on top of that. I do think that this is like one of the things like,

23:34 I'm not going to go

23:35 out and short L1s because crypto markets defy rationality by any stretch of the

23:40 imagination.

23:41 And so, you know, I don't think it's a useful exercise to go on short these

23:44 things. But I'm not

23:45 going to put in a position on them. I'd rather invest in applications sitting

23:48 on top of these

23:49 networks that are reaping the value of that. Like, you know, you know, fees to

23:54 go back to fees,

23:55 like the average transaction price has gone dramatically down even in Ethereum

24:00 L1.

24:01 If you were to have built your analysis around, oh, that fees being high, it

24:07 actually like just

24:09 G-Mons paradox, right? Like, fees should continue to go down to allow for more

24:12 transactions and what

24:15 have you. But it's probably something that over the next five, 10 years, I don

24:22 't think that a lot

24:23 of value will accrue to L1s unless they diversify. And like there's growing MEV

24:29 . But like, let's talk

24:31 about tempo because I think that's something that we should, we should just

24:33 kind of like not have

24:34 this theoretical discussion on price to sales by revenue. Like, who cares,

24:37 right? Ultimately,

24:38 the market believes there's a dwelling buyer and seller at that price. So, you

24:41 know, we're not

24:42 here to fight that. But tempo is interesting because like, I've heard a lot of

24:48 folks just

24:49 converge on this idea that like stablecoin transfers in and of themselves don't

24:54 accrue

24:54 like much value. It's the values that the other things that are enabled by, you

25:00 know, having stable

25:01 like instant settlement and instant, you know, payouts. So, yeah, like, why don

25:07 't we just touch

25:08 on tempo if you want to give us a rundown and then like, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I

25:15 think everybody

25:15 at this point knows about tempo. Obviously, it's the paradigm plus, you know,

25:21 stripe collaboration

25:22 for, you know, really trying to build a payments focused or payments first

25:26 blockchain. The ways

25:29 they do that are a couple of different things. And there's some technical

25:32 nuances to how they

25:33 have built certain products that are embedded into the chain. The main thing

25:39 that I think matters

25:40 is that they basically preserve the majority of the block for stablecoin

25:46 transfers.

25:47 And they basically deprioritize any non stablecoin transfers. And they also

25:55 provide it's also,

25:56 there's like a fee schedule and they do kind of dynamic fees. And so it's very

26:00 much trying to

26:00 incentivize stablecoin transfers. And the idea is that like, instead of being

26:06 permissioned,

26:07 you're just putting the right economic incentives in place. So that the only

26:10 thing people actually

26:11 want to do on the chain or the thing that people will hopefully want to do on

26:13 the chain is do,

26:15 you know, payments, essentially. Now, you know, it launched yesterday, made it

26:19 launched and I

26:20 think within 10 minutes, there was a Epstein related meme coin on a tempo, but

26:24 maybe that's

26:25 just that's just crypto. But clearly, what they've done is they've built it in

26:30 such a way that's

26:30 supposed to be like, this is for payments, right? And all of their business

26:33 development around what

26:34 they're doing with Stripe, bridge, privy, the entire ecosystem there has been

26:38 about how do we

26:39 bring people a package of doing on chain payments inclusive of this thing,

26:44 right? And so they

26:45 launched yesterday, they also announced a, I forget is that it's called MPP, I

26:48 forget exactly what MPP

26:49 stands for now machine payments protocol opens machine payments. Yeah, and so

26:55 that's like an

26:55 agent payments protocol that you can use, your stablecoins or, or cards or a

27:00 bunch of different

27:01 types of payment mechanisms, and trying to be kind of an open standard for, for

27:07 , for, for, you know,

27:08 agent payments in agent, economic activity. That is anybody could technically

27:14 extend it, but most

27:16 of the, the governance, like basically all the governance right now is done at

27:20 like, you know,

27:20 the tempo level. And so it's not quite an open source, you know, project yet,

27:24 but in terms of like,

27:26 you know, actually being able to have, you know, other people unpack the way it

27:30 works. But I think

27:32 I expect they'll do that over time. But that competes, you know, kind of

27:36 directly with, you

27:37 know, some of these other protocols are these, these kind of standards, it's

27:40 really a standard

27:40 for, you know, agent economic commerce, things like X402, which, you know,

27:45 Coinbase is obviously

27:46 behind. And, you know, open AI and the foundational models all launched their

27:50 own Google launched

27:52 their own. And so there's a lot of these people kind of have these standards

27:54 out there. And so,

27:56 you know, that's also, I think, somewhat interesting at the time, when everyone

27:59 's thinking about

27:59 agentic, agentic activity, but all of that to be said, that brings it back to

28:04 your original

28:05 question, which is like, okay, so this is an interesting piece of the, you know

28:09 , stripe,

28:10 you know, pie, right, but does tempo itself a crew value, right? And that was

28:16 kind of what

28:16 you're asking because it raised at a $5 billion valuation. But will the fees

28:21 and all of the economic

28:23 value accrual be done by other strike products, or, you know, other bridge

28:28 products or privy,

28:29 not tempo itself, unless maybe launches a token. So I don't know, what's your

28:33 perspective there?

28:35 Yeah, I don't think like stablecoins along carry the boat to justify that

28:42 valuation. It's what

28:43 it allows, like value added services on top. So is it worth $5 billion today?

28:50 Probably not.

28:51 Is it going to be useful in the area for stripe? Yes, you know, providing

28:58 better services to their

28:59 customer base? What was interesting is, I mean, part of part of the benefit

29:03 here is the muscle

29:04 that they have. I mean, out of the gate, they have visa collaborating with them

29:07 . We have a bunch

29:08 of other ecosystem partners. You know, I quote, for example, our design partner

29:14 visa has already

29:15 extended MPP to support card based payments on their network. Stripe has

29:19 extended it to support

29:20 cards while it's another payment methods through their platform. Lightspark has

29:24 also extended for

29:25 Bitcoin payments or the lightning network. And I think like that's, you know,

29:30 we've talked about

29:30 it here at length, which is like, this is kind of like when we were at lunch

29:33 with a very impressive

29:34 set of partners and never got off the ground. Obviously, I am very curious

29:40 about what how much

29:41 traction they get. I forget, but I saw a chart around like, was X402 payments,

29:46 or the activity

29:47 there's like kind of been declining. And it was all the rage a couple months

29:52 back. And now there

29:53 has been that much activity. I am curious. There's been basically no organic X

29:59 402 activity ever.

30:02 So there was like some people, there were some like people who were like

30:05 launching

30:06 on top of X402 that if you look, it looks like watch trading and people thought

30:10 maybe there would be

30:11 some, you know, base or X402, like, you know, value, you know, token value acc

30:15 rual to at some point.

30:16 But there's basically never been any real activity on X402. Yeah, anyways.

30:19 Yeah. Yeah, I, I'm looking here a cumulative stats 75.4 million transactions 24

30:27 .2 in total volume,

30:29 less than 100k buyers. I am, when you look at that, like, does that, I don't

30:36 know if you guys

30:36 made an investment in like a gente comm or so it is a it is a key narrative,

30:39 right? Around like,

30:41 you know, people get excited. Like the the common thread that I'm hearing now

30:45 is like,

30:45 you know, blockchains were not built for humans, they're built for robots. And

30:48 you know,

30:49 this is crypto trying to be relevant at an age of AI. But how do you, how do

30:52 you see?

30:55 I actually do think it will it makes sense to spin up an agent and give it, you

31:01 know,

31:01 for an agent to use stablecoins when it can't care what I see and what not. I

31:06 do bind to that

31:06 narrative. I think it's quite real. But what would you attribute the the is it

31:11 just the X402?

31:12 Like it was that just there's not enough use cases people are not thinking

31:18 about it.

31:19 There is no agent to commerce today. Like that there is no agent to commerce at

31:23 all.

31:23 Like it is like we are all talking about a jump to commerce. It does not exist,

31:26 right?

31:27 Now doesn't mean it doesn't mean it. I mean, not zero, obviously, but like it's

31:30 de minimis, right? And all of the agenda commerce that is happening today is

31:34 happening through

31:35 traditional rails using stripes API's for the most part, right? Now, does that

31:39 mean it won't

31:40 exist in the future? No, that's not what that means. But X402 and the Google

31:45 and open AI and

31:46 anthropic and now MPP, all of these standards exist. But nobody has agreed on a

31:52 standard yet,

31:53 right? And there needs to be some agreement on a standard in the future to us

31:57 to continue to build,

31:58 you know, more economic value around that and, you know, products around that.

32:03 So we're going to have to see one of these things win over time, right? We're

32:08 also just going to

32:08 have to see agents get better because agents are great in a lot of ways today.

32:14 But the near term

32:16 activity that we're seeing is things like enterprise use cases for, which is

32:20 like really like advanced

32:21 RPA, right? It's like automation work, right? Or it's, you know, helpers to you

32:27 and I, who on

32:28 research and on, you know, maybe, you know, some of our workflows, right? But

32:34 even it was not really

32:36 a way for us to do, I mean, there are a lot of people who have like perplexly

32:39 launched a product

32:40 and other people launched a product around like, oh, could we pay with an agent

32:43 to do something?

32:44 Those, those products are still very clunky today. And also the reality is, is

32:49 like,

32:49 because of the amount of approvals that you have to do in those today, it would

32:53 take me

32:54 longer to buy, you know, toilet paper through perplexity than it would just to

32:58 do it myself

32:59 and click into my Amazon app, right? And so it's like not a great user

33:02 experience yet. And also,

33:04 there's from a lot of things humans want to buy. They want to be buying things.

33:10 And so,

33:10 I think the story that you were, you were referencing earlier, which is the

33:14 better story,

33:15 isn't about merchant acceptance from agents. It's more about, is there an

33:22 economy that exists

33:24 outside of human to merchant, you know, payments or business to merchant

33:30 payments that is net new

33:32 and that agents are doing? I think that's the story. That market is very, very

33:36 far away from

33:37 actually existing. There are a lot of people building around it today. But we

33:41 haven't done a deal

33:43 there yet because it feels so far out in the future and so unclear how that

33:48 market will exist

33:49 that we're doing, we're having the conversations, we're meeting the

33:52 entrepreneurs, we're trying

33:54 to be smart about it. But it just hasn't yet felt like the risk reward is there

33:58 relative to how hot

33:59 the market is and the valuations that these companies are getting when, you

34:03 know, when it

34:04 doesn't exist yet. Yeah, I had a really look at a deal that this particular

34:09 individual was leaving

34:11 when a larger card networks and said, "Hey, I feel like this is going to be a

34:14 big thing. I want

34:14 to launch my own." I didn't end up investing that because I do think that

34:18 distribution is king here

34:20 and I did. It's very, what Tempo has gotten very well is like they just have an

34:23 impressive

34:24 beady muscle and distribution partners out of the gate. And it doesn't mean

34:29 that other,

34:29 you know, there isn't an opportunity for other folks to thrive, but it's just

34:33 hard to compete

34:34 again. So super well resource, very human capital dense organization that has a

34:39 lot of partners out

34:39 of the gate. But we'll see. I mean, I think, have there been projects that have

34:50 come to you in the

34:51 kind of early stage and said, "Hey, we're going to build on top of Tempo?"

34:54 Because that's an interesting

34:56 stat. Like if you look at like the, for instance, there was a time where like

35:01 there's 99% of the

35:02 projects were just purely Ethereum. And then that pendulum swung a little bit

35:06 more towards Solana.

35:07 Now you're seeing some activity in hype, like hype, like hype, BBM, like, you

35:12 know,

35:13 that ecosystem being built out a bit. Have you seen major changes or people

35:18 come to you and say,

35:18 "Hey, I want to build on top of Tempo. Is that even a thing?" Or is it most of

35:22 the close source

35:23 and people are just not building on top of it? So we haven't seen a lot in the

35:28 way of like net

35:28 new entrepreneurs yet. There are obviously people, I was sitting next to a

35:33 dinner last night next to

35:35 the founders of one of the largest DeFi protocols. And you know, I don't think

35:38 they publicly announced

35:38 it, but they've already been deployed there for a little bit and they'll do

35:41 some work there.

35:42 There are obviously a lot of people deploying there. And Tempo? Yeah, on Tempo.

35:46 They just haven't

35:47 announced it yet. But I think they did do is they like enshrined to their own

35:52 decks, right? And so

35:54 they will, I think, in the same way that, you know, some of the other more

35:57 commercially-minded

35:58 elements have done, they will just create winners because if they create

36:01 winners, then

36:02 liquidity will aggregate. And if liquidity aggregates, then like it's a better

36:05 product, right? And so

36:07 we haven't seen much in the way yet of what I would say developer, net new,

36:14 like, you know,

36:15 projects building there that are trying to raise capital. I'm sure it'll happen

36:18 , you know,

36:19 over time. But the business, you know, the way it's built, which is really

36:25 around payments,

36:27 like, they do not care. They are very opinionated about what they want to be.

36:32 And they don't care

36:33 if, like, the latest DeFi, you know, person or latest DeFi entrepreneur wants

36:37 to build there.

36:38 Like, that is not their business. And they've explicitly said that, right? And

36:41 they've made

36:42 design decisions to do that, right? And so if that's the case, like, you're

36:46 just going to see

36:46 the less new net new entrepreneurs. And what it is going to be, though, is it's

36:49 going to be

36:50 focused on this one use case, really focused on this one use case. And it's

36:56 probably at least in

36:56 the near term, it'll ever die based on the BD emotion of Stripe, right?

37:00 Eventually,

37:00 maybe it'll be broader. And there's, you know, referrals and there's liquidity,

37:03 sort of like liquidity, it's liquidity and being on the same chain as the

37:08 partner,

37:08 you know, is a good thing, right? But but today it's, it's, it's going to live

37:12 or die based on Stripe.

37:13 Yeah. Who, um, there's a lot of opinions on the timeline that we don't have

37:20 enough time to

37:21 discuss, but who stands to benefit other than Stripe, equity holders, I would

37:27 argue,

37:27 who stands to benefit and who stands to lose the most in a world where Tempo is

37:33 successful.

37:34 I can think of who loses, but I'm curious. You always go with this podcast Rob

37:41 since you're

37:42 the newest member here. You just want me to say the spicy things. So people,

37:49 you know,

37:51 I sort of stopped competing against who's going to get the first 10 seconds

37:55 clip of like, you know,

37:56 that's your role. I'm, I'm happy in my lane. Just I don't deliver that. I'm

38:01 like an old dog,

38:02 man. You know, my takes are watched down like, you know, I'm, you're like that,

38:07 that meme of like

38:08 the guy in the hot tub, you know, like, I'm bothered moisturizing my lane as a

38:14 world blows up now.

38:15 Um, but yeah, like, who, I mean, you and I share all, maybe all stuff. You and

38:20 I share this investment

38:21 present codex. First, you know, it is top of mind here. Very sharp guys. A lot

38:27 of really,

38:29 very opinionated as well. I think they have really unique insights, but they,

38:34 again,

38:34 super specific on this, like, um, you could argue they are now going to compete

38:41 against Tempo,

38:42 right? And I can think of others, but yeah, how do you think about though?

38:47 Yeah, the codex guys, obviously there's more to that story in terms of like the

38:52 partnerships.

38:52 They've actually pivoted. They announced it today. You probably haven't seen it

38:55 , but

38:55 they're now entirely focused on Fx business. Um, and so they, they kind of

39:00 launched their

39:00 rebrand today. Um, and they're actually doing a few hundred million a month in

39:05 Fx, but, uh, right

39:05 now, uh, so, um, they're, uh, and that's growing quickly. So kind of a

39:09 different business. Uh,

39:11 and I'd like to your point, I'm big fans of, of how Nann and, and Momo. Um, I

39:16 think on the loser side,

39:17 obviously, like, you know, who's competing the most? Like who has dedicated

39:21 payments teams,

39:22 it's competing on payments, right? Solana has a big dedicated payments team. Uh

39:26 , Monad has a

39:28 debt, big dedicated payments team and they have very good people there. The Raj

39:32 who, um,

39:32 came from Visa, uh, and then Portal, uh, runs that business for them. Um, you

39:37 know, there's a,

39:38 then there's kind of like the, it's like Circle Arc, right? Which hasn't

39:41 launched yet and there's,

39:43 um, you know, then there's the, you know, you can debate whether or not it's

39:46 not clear to me that

39:47 like plasma or stable or any of these guys actually wanted to be payments. They

39:51 just wanted to be

39:51 kind of like places for, for, you know, tether to sit. Um, but there's

39:55 definitely people of like,

39:56 you know, picks the stable coin chain before probably actually the one that the

39:59 other two that are

40:01 people talk about less, but I've been done more of the work there have been

40:05 polygon in and, um, uh,

40:07 and, um, no, uh, Tron. Yeah. And then there's the one, the first one that Strap

40:13 invested in, um,

40:14 which is, um, uh, I'll remember the name earlier, but the PayPal, the extra

40:21 PayPal out of crypto,

40:22 um, is there now? Uh, those are actually the guys. That's, uh, that's, uh, poly

40:27 gon. No, no, no,

40:29 uh, Polygon took somebody from Strap, a guy named John Egan. Yeah. Oh, paper.

40:33 Yeah. Yeah. But the,

40:35 um, uh, listen, polygon is actually doing like a lot of payments volume today

40:40 and they have a

40:40 bunch of institutional payments partners. Like they are now directly head and

40:44 they did that

40:45 acquisition or two acquisitions, I guess. It was the early January or December

40:51 that made them kind of

40:52 fully verticalized payments stack, right? And that's essentially what's

40:55 happening here with tempo

40:56 and stripe and bridge. And so, you know, they're that they're going to be a

40:59 real competitor.

41:00 Solana is obviously taking a little bit of a different approach because, um,

41:04 they started,

41:05 I think leading some VC deals. So they're definitely trying to, you know,

41:08 continue to put money into

41:10 and, and, um, you know, work to get the right people built on top of them. Uh,

41:15 but they're,

41:16 they haven't necessarily owned, you know, like all the fully verticalized stack

41:20 today. Um,

41:22 and so, you know, that's the competitive set, right? And those are the people

41:25 who obviously are

41:26 going to be going to be worried about about tempo. Um, I think to your point

41:32 around, okay, well,

41:33 well, what happens in a world where they're really successful? Like who accrues

41:37 value? Well,

41:38 yeah, I mean, clearly the stripe equity holders accrue value. Um, theoretically

41:43 , the tempo equity

41:44 holders agree value or if they want your token. Uh, I do a lot of economic

41:50 activity happening on

41:51 an EVM chain is probably just good for all of crypto. And some sense it is a

41:56 rising tide,

41:57 but it's, you know, it's probably less good for Ethereum than it is good for

42:01 tempo, but it's not

42:02 bad for Ethereum. If more economic activity from corporations is happening on

42:06 tempo in my mind,

42:07 right? Maybe it's bad for the payments to focus guys or, you know, the, uh, the

42:12 L2s. I don't think

42:13 it's bad for like Ethereum mainnet, right? Because that was never going to be a

42:17 place where you did,

42:19 you know, a large scale amount of traditional, you know, payments. Right. And

42:23 so I actually think,

42:25 I mean, I think there's a rising tides left all boats and that's happening here

42:29 with the Rosie.

42:30 That's always been the Rosie kind of, uh, you know, more activity lifts all

42:34 boats. And so the,

42:36 if someone wins in some part of the ecosystem and benefits everything, I

42:39 actually think

42:39 my stance is a bit more, uh, cutthroat now. I think, uh, you know, that there

42:45 is likely going to be,

42:47 um, you know, that's always the position of a week of a week player, right? It

42:50 's like, oh,

42:50 this is good. But the reality is I think probably

42:54 more concentrated volume, um, even though there's interoperability, even though

43:01 there's,

43:02 you know, uh, you know, the user that enters via tempo could maybe go to

43:07 Ethereum, uh,

43:09 probably maybe I'm, I'm not sure. Um, but, uh, we'll see. I mean, I, I think

43:16 the tendency for

43:17 companies, whether you're Solana or layer zero or Stripe is to own that user

43:24 and not share with

43:24 anyone else if you don't have to. Um, but, uh, I just have a perspective. And

43:29 by the way, it was,

43:30 it was stellar. I was talking about earlier because I actually today, stellar

43:33 and polygon are

43:34 definitely doing, um, probably the most payments in terms of like actual

43:37 payments. You know,

43:38 Solana is there as well, but, um, you know, they've started to get a lot of

43:41 partnerships on board

43:42 while those partnerships aren't really, haven't really scaled yet. Um, but the,

43:47 if more and more

43:49 of what you and I do on a daily basis, it happens to be on chain, more

43:53 businesses will build on chain

43:55 and there'll be more RWAs, there'll be more tokenized assets, there'll be more

44:00 stable coins,

44:00 there will be more, um, net new novel products that will exist because block

44:06 chains enable that,

44:07 right? And I think it's very clear that like, there's no one chain that will

44:15 win all activity,

44:17 right? Like I think that's a very myopic view that doesn't really make a lot of

44:19 sense. Uh, we will

44:21 probably eventually have a fully abstracted, you know, routing system at some

44:25 point that all of

44:26 these guys will plug into that will, you know, give you press price essentially

44:30 across all of

44:31 these different chains. Uh, and the fact that, you know, tempo might, let's say

44:37 tempo is really

44:38 successful and they own, you know, all of the like cross-border payments, right

44:41 ? Um,

44:42 those after that cross-border payments happening, they're being delivered to

44:46 somebody. If it's

44:47 going to an end user, that end user will have a wallet, that end user with that

44:51 wallet will

44:51 figure out ways to spend and save and do all of these other things. And, um,

44:55 you know, the design

44:56 decisions that was made today is not to serve that ecosystem. It's to serve the

45:01 cross-border

45:02 payments ecosystem. Yeah. Uh, yeah, I think this goes back to what I was saying

45:06 earlier and, you know,

45:07 you've probably heard me say this year ago when I was starting off at Meru,

45:10 which is more valuable

45:11 accrue to, to the applications that Clark knows of the world, the new banks of

45:15 the world that can

45:16 choose the infrastructure beneath them, right? To lower the cost of, to serve.

45:20 Um, uh, I think

45:22 time and time again over crypto like once a new player comes in, it just

45:26 introduces more competition

45:28 at that infrastructure layer. And that's always been beneficial for the end

45:31 customer. Um, above

45:33 anything else, right? When Solana came in and like sucked in a lot of DeFi

45:37 activity from Ethereum,

45:39 that like galvanize the Ethereum community. Okay, we got to get our shit

45:42 together because, you know,

45:43 we're getting our out, you know, we're getting our ass kicked here. And I think

45:47 tempo coming

45:47 into the full, like in the same, the hyper liquid made it abundantly clear to

45:51 the Solana leadership

45:52 that they missed, like they dropped the ball on, on perps. Now you have bulk,

45:57 uh, response to

45:59 hyper liquid and then it launched like this week. And so that's something that

46:03 I'm paying attention

46:03 to. But I think that competition at the infra layer is good for the app sitting

46:07 on top and

46:08 ultimately the consumer that is seeing that because they have just access to

46:11 more products.

46:12 They don't really care what that gets routed to your point, right? I mean, it's

46:15 , you know,

46:16 going back to HTTPS, like all you cared about was like, Oh gosh, I can have

46:19 access to Gmail,

46:20 not just Hotmail. That's good for me. You know, this seems pretty good. And

46:23 commerce online just

46:24 became safer. So I think, um, that's where I sort of mean, like, I think I'd

46:31 rather be investing

46:33 and sitting a layer on top because it is just fiercely competitive about the

46:36 infrastructure layer.

46:37 And, um, but net net, it's good for apps. It's good for developers. It's good

46:41 for

46:42 and customers that are just going to benefit from greater ease and convenience

46:47 when they're

46:47 trying to use any sort of stablecoin or crypto enabled product, for that matter

46:51 .

46:52 Yeah. I mean, there's no doubt it's being on chain is better for consumers,

46:56 right? And like,

46:58 the consumers are the ones that we're going to win in the end.

47:01 Yeah, I got five minutes for I was having an expensive call with, uh, with a

47:06 lawyer here that

47:07 I don't want to be late for. But there's just a couple of things where we get

47:10 the content of the

47:10 week. My favorite part, uh, Kraken, we've talked about a length. They just came

47:14 out saying that

47:15 they're delaying IPO plans. I think so they didn't, they didn't say it. Well,

47:19 there was a coin.

47:20 There's a coin that's article that said it. Um, I don't know if that's actually

47:24 true or not.

47:25 And I will say that, you know, I know the team there pretty well. And I think,

47:29 um, uh, I don't

47:31 expect this to be a material, uh, bump in the road for that. Yeah. I think when

47:36 they were raising

47:36 the last round, a lot of there was certainly like a lot of SPVs, a lot of

47:40 people that came in. It

47:41 was a big round. A lot of them were kind of looking at like, Hey, there's,

47:44 there's a likely

47:44 going to be an IPO event. Uh, I don't think anyone underwrote this year. I

47:48 think most people assumed

47:49 it was going to be like, uh, within the next three years kind of thing. And I

47:52 would probably think

47:53 that that continues to be on track. Um, you know, irrespective of like macro

47:58 conditions and whatnot,

47:59 like they've been, they've been like in this IPO readiness track for quite a

48:02 bit of time and

48:03 they continue to ship really good products. And so I, I think it happens within

48:07 probably next year.

48:08 Um, unless there's some like major kind of catastrophic market event, I think

48:12 they could

48:12 probably be a Reddit IPO next year. Yeah. I, I, um, I still think this year is

48:18 possible. So, um, yeah.

48:20 Are there, are there on this point, are there other, uh, in the docket? Like,

48:23 uh, I think we saw

48:24 it just a huge wave loss from this bitco. Is there anything else that's coming

48:27 on?

48:27 There's a bunch of people who might come this year. Uh, I think nobody's

48:31 decided for sure. I think

48:32 it depends a little bit. The markets probably need to stabilize like, like the

48:36 IPO market,

48:36 all of a sudden kind of shot again with the, the war in Iran, right? And so,

48:40 you know,

48:40 tell the risk as risk markets are back. Like you're not going to see any good

48:44 IPOs, let alone, uh, the,

48:47 you know, got the crypto ones. You also probably don't want to be going at the

48:51 same time that

48:52 open AI and SpaceX are going. And so you probably want to avoid that. And so

48:57 you're

48:57 probably your window is like, you know, call it the next three to six months or

49:02 else you want to

49:02 push it to next year. So, but there's a lot of people, I will say that I do

49:05 think a lot of people want to

49:06 get, um, get out before the next election. Yeah. Yeah, we should, yeah, no, is

49:13 our rather, you know,

49:14 in-house political expert. We'll save that discussion for next week of DAS,

49:17 which I'm very

49:18 excited about. Um, and we should talk about like what it means for crypto. Uh,

49:23 if the war continues

49:24 and, you know, approval ratings go down, like, you know, you have a different,

49:27 you know, shake up in

49:28 the houses. Like what that means for the clarity, I can have a bunch of other

49:31 things, but I mean,

49:32 if you look at polywracker right now, it's, it's, it's flashing to you pretty

49:35 clearly what

49:36 they think is going to happen in the midterms. Yeah. Does that worry you? No, I

49:42 mean, it's also

49:44 typical in the midterms, right? Like the, um, the house is almost certainly

49:47 going to flip. Uh,

49:49 the Senate is in play. I don't think anybody thought the Senate would be in

49:51 play, but now it is.

49:53 Um, we'll see. I think, you know, the number one thing will be kind of the

49:56 downstream effects

49:57 from my ran war and how long the ran war goes to be honest. Yeah. Yeah.

50:00 Speaking of, as an aside,

50:03 before we go to content of the week, uh, we, so token got canceled. I think a

50:07 lot of conferences,

50:08 I think token Singapore is still going to happen, but, uh, you can expect the

50:12 airfare to be

50:13 dramatically more expensive, uh, going forward. Um, just kind of wild how that

50:19 spiked. I hope you,

50:20 I hope you booked your travel in advance for offer on some of these conferences

50:23 . I know you and I

50:24 are going to go to an event that you guys are doing in an undisclosed location,

50:27 but uh, um,

50:28 I'm glad I booked that airfare well in advance because it's looking pretty,

50:32 pretty steep now.

50:32 I've already got my airfare book to Monaco to come see you. So, yeah. Don't

50:39 worry. You have,

50:40 you have a couch, man. You know, um, all right. Well, that's a, at risk of

50:46 going down geopolitical

50:47 route. Yet again, uh, I think we, we've maintained ourselves pretty, pretty

50:51 good here. Uh, not,

50:52 not done too much of that. Uh, what's the content of the week here?

50:54 Two things. One, the most obvious thing, which is it's March Madness.

50:59 So like it is, you know, it's college basketball, one of the most fun times in

51:04 the year.

51:04 What's, what's March Madness?

51:06 No, you're not serious. I'm not, I'm not that bad. I won't let you, I won't let

51:12 you have that. Um,

51:13 so March Madness, you know, obviously that's all my mind. And then, um,

51:18 are you a Buckeye? Uh, yeah, a higher state Buckeye fan. So they have an eight

51:22 seed, you know, um,

51:23 so we'll, uh, you know, it's a football school, not a basketball school, but we

51:27 'll, we'll see,

51:27 the basketball team's had no case season. So we'll see how it goes. Um, and

51:31 then, uh, you know,

51:33 I have to get back to, to my horror movie roots. And there's, uh, there was a,

51:37 a movie called Ready

51:38 or Not, which was actually like a very fun, um, movie about a woman who, you

51:44 know, got married

51:45 into a family. And it turns out this family has sort of a very odd tradition

51:50 about, um, having to,

51:51 like, sacrifice, you know, kind of the new, uh, the new bride. Um, and then she

51:56 kind of ends up

51:58 beating the, beating the family and, and end up not being sacrificed. But the

52:01 sequel to that comes

52:02 out tomorrow. It's actually very fun. It's cool movie, you know, kind of a

52:05 action, a horror movie.

52:07 It's obviously in that opening day. So you're going to go to the movie theater

52:10 and popcorn and

52:11 all that stuff. Oh yeah. The, the, the, there's a, the one you go through is

52:17 like old fashions and

52:18 this. I mean, I'm going to have an old fashioned and maybe I'll have a, you

52:21 know, a popcorn or

52:22 maybe all the burger. You know, if you ever want to go on Friday, I feel like

52:26 we leak a lot

52:26 of off of you ever want to raise from, from drag and fly. You just have

52:30 basically gotten a blueprint

52:32 as to how to approach, uh, talk about horror, have an opinion on old fashioned,

52:38 um, and, and,

52:40 I mean, old fashioned kind of sore. You should know that. Yeah. I know. I know

52:43 that now. I think

52:44 the market now knows that. And so I think we use this podcast. If you ever want

52:47 to raise around

52:48 from drag and fly, there's a lot of primer, like alpha here that breadcrumbs

52:51 that you just pick

52:52 up and, and, and, and like show that you're prepared. Um, so my content of the

52:57 week is as

52:58 always more boring here. Uh, I started, uh, reading, uh, Carl Malone's book

53:02 Born to Be Wired. Uh,

53:03 just a really fantastic, I've always had it on my list. I read Ted Turner's, um

53:08 , book, uh, a while

53:10 back. And that's obviously the, uh, intertwined. Uh, but this one is just

53:14 phenomenal. Um, just a

53:15 really fascinating story of how they did roll ups of the cable industry. Um, of

53:20 course, they

53:20 now have Liberty Media. I know how much you like F1. They bought F1, which is

53:23 probably one of

53:24 a phenomenal investment in my mind, but it tells you everything like just, uh,

53:28 they laid the, the

53:29 fiber, um, first the cable than the fiber, uh, which obviously allowed for the

53:33 internet and whatnot.

53:34 And then, um, yeah, really, really fascinating story. Uh, that's called Born to

53:38 Be Wired. Uh,

53:39 I'm halfway through it. Uh, I started a couple of days ago and it's just really

53:42 , really, really

53:43 good book. So I recommend. Cool. I'll check it out. All right. So what next

53:49 week,

53:49 Dass, we're going to be recording live in person. Yeah. That's going to be fun.

53:54 Big time.

53:54 And it'll be Yano's big comeback. Come back. Yes. That's right. That's right.

53:59 That's

53:59 going to be fun, man. I'm excited for that. And, uh, if, if you guys are in New

54:02 York,

54:03 let us know. Uh, this is probably the time where Yano would be doing a plug to

54:06 get your tickets to

54:07 Dass. Prices are going to go up like in 20 minutes. I think it's almost sold

54:10 out. Sold out, sold out.

54:12 It's going to be a great event. Um, if you're in the area, let us know and

54:16 excited to hang out with

54:17 you guys in person. Cool. All right. All right. See you next week, guys.

Moon

· 1d

21 分钟内答 21 道题。比特币、人工智能和数字时代的创新。 @PresidioBitcoin #btc #ai

https://x.com/saylor/status/2034732750217806012?s=20

中文 English

0:00 - 迈克尔·塞勒，欢迎来到Presidio比特币

0:03 以及21和21节目。

0:05 很高兴你能来。

0:06 - 今天真棒。

0:07 - 是的，你就像旧金山的夏天一样来临，

0:10 天气真美。

0:12 - 正好在这里，这里是个辉煌的地方。

0:15 我们很有启发。

0:16 - 谢谢，我准备了一些问题。

0:18 我们打算在21分钟内尽可能多地问，

0:21 你准备好了吗？

0:22 - 好的，开始吧。

0:23 - 好，开始。

0:24 第一个问题是，

0:26 你一直是推动比特币进入主流观众的最有影响力的声音之一，

0:29 无论是个人层面还是企业层面。

0:31 那么你对2026年的最重要看法是什么？

0:35 - 2026年是个伟大且转折之年，

0:37 我们看到大型银行开始拥抱比特币。

0:43 我们推出了各种数字信用产品，

0:46 比如Stretch，面向零售投资者和退休人员，

0:49 还有企业财务人员和金融家。

0:53 这是比特币一大批新支持者。

0:56 我们拥有业界历史上最支持的金融监管机构，

0:59 涵盖美联储、财政部、CFD、SEC。

1:03 我们还即将通过《清晰法案》，

1:07 这对整个行业提供了极大的合法化。

1:11 我期待行业的进步

1:15 以及它融入主流金融世界的扩展。

1:17 - 真好看到，是的。

1:18 今年发生了很多事情，是重要的一年。

1:23 第二个问题是，

1:24 你把比特币称为数字财产。

1:28 那么你怎么看待比特币作为消费货币？

1:31 - 我认为会是这样，

1:33 比特币第一层会是数字资本。

1:37 你会看到第二层数字信用爆发，

1:39 第三层则是数字货币。

1:41 第三层会成为，

1:44 可以称为比特币背书的稳定币，

1:46 或者是储蓄币。

1:48 就像美元一样，

1:50 你可以把它作为交换媒介流通。

1:53 它会整合所有以美元计价的数万亿美元

1:56 产品和服务，

2:00 以及成千上万家接受和花费美元的公司，

2:02 但它会提供更高的收益率。

2:05 大约六七八个百分点，

2:07 远超通胀成本。

2:11 这将是建立在比特币上的强大高效货币。

2:15 - 那你怎么看商家呢？

2:20 你会怎么告诉他们接受这种支付很划算？

2:22 - 我认为会是资产稳定币。

2:24 我觉得全球所有接受美元支付的地方

2:27 都会用到它。

2:29 你可以把它换成美元，

2:31 支付任何东西。

2:32 - 这很方便。

2:33 - 是的，我的意思是数字货币

2:35 主要会是美元。

2:37 美元正在全球扩散，

2:42 正在取代欧元、英镑、日元。

2:47 在欧洲，人们并不想用欧元，

2:49 他们想用美元。

2:50 所以美元实际上正在成为全球货币。

2:55 数字化的美元就是它的加密

2:59 或数字版。

3:02 但最大的突破是能够

3:04 创造一种比特币背书的数字货币，

3:08 其收益率是法币背书货币的两三四倍。

3:12 - 你觉得随着这一进展，

3:16 比特币变得越来越普及，

3:19 即便是以权益形式购买比特币的人，

3:23 这些投资者

3:24 或者新入场的人，

3:25 他们是否还能理解比特币的理念

3:28 和起初的意义，

3:30 还是仅仅会觉得它只是个资产，

3:32 没那么在意理念？

3:34 - 我认为会有一部分人，

3:36 包括个人和企业，

3:39 大户和倡导者以及开发者会继续传承

3:43 比特币理念。

3:46 当然，技术人员会了解

3:48 比特币技术。

3:51 但我觉得我们正走向一个世界，

3:53 有十亿人，

3:54 他们只想要一个银行账户能帮他们赚利息。

3:57 无论是六岁女孩，

3:59 还是75岁退休老人，

4:01 他们知道数字货币

4:03 是由比特币驱动的。

4:05 就像你家的电

4:07 来自核反应堆，

4:09 你可能不知道怎么造核反应堆，也不知道它多复杂，

4:13 但你知道电很棒又便宜。

4:15 所以我真的认为随着比特币传播，

4:18 会有一部分人非常精通技术，

4:21 但绝大多数人，

4:23 他们不想知道飞机怎么飞，

4:25 不想知道汽车怎么发动，

4:27 也不想知道电怎么来的，

4:29 他们甚至不知道自己的食物怎么来，

4:31 比如大多数人不知道

4:33 可口可乐是怎么做出来的，

4:35 没人知道怎么制造iPhone。

4:37 他们只知道他们手里有个极好的产品，

4:41 解决了他们生活中的问题，

4:43 而且基于卓越的技术。

4:46 - 我完全同意，

4:47 只要人们知道这一点，

4:48 他们不需要深入细节。

4:50 我们这些Presidio比特币的人了解就够了。

4:53 - 是的，我觉得我们都很乐观，

4:58 但我们也想讨论另一种未来，

5:01 灰暗的未来，比特币失败了，

5:04 你觉得失败的原因是什么？

5:06 - 比特币不会失败，

5:08 它会成功，因为比特币代表着经济

5:11 赋权给全世界的人。

5:13 比特币是通往经济繁荣的协定。

5:17 就像我们说英语，

5:19 你不会说人们会停止说英语或停止交流。

5:22 大家不会停止交流。

5:24 如果有阿拉伯数字或者数学，

5:27 人们不会停止用数学。

5:29 他们会继续用英语。

5:30 人们会一直使用比特币，因为人们需要数学

5:35 制造机器，进行商业交易，

5:39 需要语言彼此协调，

5:43 需要比特币进行理性经济交易。

5:46 所以不会失败。

5:46 - 热爱你这坚定的乐观，

5:50 - 我也同意。

5:51 - 好的，我有点有趣的问题。

5:53 - 好的。

5:54 - 我知道你读过MIT。

5:55 - 我爸也读过。

5:57 我听说MIT有一些著名的聪明恶作剧，

6:00 你有喜欢讲的故事吗？

6:02 - 让我想想，有次我们兄弟会，

6:07 劫持了电梯，

6:12 布置好，

6:14 和院长办公室一起，

6:16 把院长的所有家具搬进电梯，

6:19 然后锁电梯，

6:22 要用特殊密码才能开电梯，

6:24 帮这次恶作剧安装了自己的吊灯，

6:27 点亮吊灯。

6:29 - 哇。

6:30 - 电梯门打开时，

6:32 会看到一个怪人坐在桌子旁

6:36 带着吊灯在说话。

6:38 - 真不错。

6:39 - 真不错。

6:40 再一个问题。

6:42 我看到你会弹吉他，

6:45 还会玩吗？

6:47 如果还玩，喜欢弹什么？

6:49 - 高中和大学时玩过。

6:53 有时为自己弹，大多是披头士的歌。

6:56 - 哦，披头士。

6:57 不错。

7:00 还想问你一个有趣的问题。

7:01 你在推特上的自画像很有标志性，

7:06 你用哪些AI工具生成这些图片？

7:08 - 用了很多，

7:10 有的来自Midjourney，

7:12 有的来自Brock，

7:15 还有些我根本没生成。

7:17 别人帮我生成的，

7:19 用各种工具。

7:21 大部分实际上我没生成。

7:24 你看图片会发现我标注了艺术家，

7:26 比如最活跃的Atlas、Hodl、

7:29 LaDozier等、Janice。

7:33 他们做的很棒，

7:35 用了好多工具。

7:36 - 你从玩AI工具中学到什么了吗？

7:40 有尝试写点有趣的代码吗？

7:43 - 实际上，我们去年发行了大约80亿美元

7:46 数字信用，都是用AI创造的。

7:48 Stretch是主要数字信用产品，

7:53 用来创造各种

7:55 数字货币和信用工具，

8:00 这些都离不开AI。

8:04 我们用AI设计证券

8:08 和资本市场策略。

8:11 有时我说点话，会用AI帮我检查语法

8:15 确保拼写正确。

8:19 有时我把图片放进AI，

8:22 问它“我想这样说，你同意吗？”

8:25 它会说，“你这样说更像迈克尔·塞勒。”

8:29 AI会纠正我，

8:30 教我迈克尔·塞勒真正说话方式。

8:33 - 那挺有趣的。

8:34 - 通常都挺准确。

8:36 AI甚至能比我本人更懂我该怎么说。

8:39 - 这世界真疯狂。

8:41 - 确实。

8:41 - 太棒了。

8:43 你很看重AI工具的战略，这很酷。

8:46 - 很想听听你对比特币和AI结合的看法，

8:49 你觉得未来会有什么积极发展？

8:53 - 我认为第一，

8:55 AI将彻底改变我们社会的所有产品和服务以及角色。

8:59 负面影响之一是它正在削弱人力资本价值。

9:02 比方说公司有1.5万名专业员工，

9:07 AI可能自动化掉其中8,000个岗位。

9:09 但另一方面，作为削弱的人力资本，

9:12 它促进资本向数字资本转移。

9:16 而这正是比特币的含义。

9:20 所以，总体看，这推动大量财富流入数字资本，

9:24 我认为这是积极的。

9:26 - AI应用有很多有趣的场景，

9:29 理论上可以创造一个跨国AI，

9:32 用比特币资本化，

9:35 放出到世界，

9:37 成为自治体。

9:39 而你无法用法币给AI资本化，也不能用传统证券组合。

9:44 未来你会看到用比特币资本化的自治生物或行为者。

9:49 很有趣。

9:50 我认为AI做事会越来越快、越来越高级。

9:53 如果一个晚上有十亿个AI互相交流，

9:57 一小时交流十亿次，

10:00 它们会绕过传统的模拟资产，

10:04 绕过传统金融系统，

10:08 想要以数字标准转移数字资产、

10:11 数字货币和数字资本。

10:15 比特币有两个极重要的特点，

10:18 它提供不可篡改的资本网络或资本源，

10:22 它就是这种资本；

10:27 它还提供全球不可变的真实根源和诚信。

10:32 我认为AI会用它来做认证。

10:34 如果AI开始模仿我们进行网络钓鱼，

10:37 加密验证重要性将更大。

10:40 认证和验证的真伪

10:43 会来自比特币网络，

10:48 因为比特币网络和交易是权威的认证和真伪标准。

10:53 所以比特币及其基础事物

10:57 将变得对数字经济越来越重要。

11:00 - 我完全同意，

11:02 很酷你也这么想。

11:03 我们也在想比特币作为消费货币给这些AI代理，

11:06 可能不只是数字财产，

11:10 我们也在做软化它，

11:12 让它更适合作为零售消费货币，

11:14 但也许会有一波新潮，

11:16 比特币作为代理花钱。

11:19 - 是的，谁知道它们会做什么，

11:22 但肯定它们想光速移动资金，

11:26 并想光速做交易。

11:29 它们要比任何模拟人力系统

11:30 快一百万倍甚至更多。

11:34 要让所有这些数字系统发挥最大潜力，

11:38 需要数字网络、数字资本、

11:41 数字货币、数字认证、

11:44 数字网络，而且必须原生在网络空间，

11:48 不能用非原生网络资产替代，

11:51 并且能够完成最终结算。

11:54 比特币提供最终结算，

11:58 而非条件结算。

12:01 最终结算和条件结算的区别，

12:05 是网络空间中能量丰富环境与影子或轮廓的区别。

12:13 你想做点真实且有实质的事，

12:16 你需要移动数字资本、

12:19 数字财产和数字货币，

12:22 不依赖现实中保管人结算。

12:24 - 100%。

12:25 我还有个AI问题。

12:27 在AI变革的大背景下，

12:30 你会给思考如何用AI创造价值

12:33 或选择职业道路的年轻人什么建议？

12:36 - 我建议花很多时间学习用AI。

12:40 选择几个AI，轮流试，测试。

12:43 挑战自己做些特别有用的事，

12:46 逼自己突破。

12:48 如果你是音乐家，尝试作一首歌，

12:51 再组成一张专辑。

12:54 如果你是艺术家，先画幅画，

12:58 再画漫画，写书，

13:01 做电视节目，做电影，

13:04 连续剧，等等，

13:07 不断逼自己更难的事。

13:11 比方说我们如何设计一个可以卖出数十亿美元的信用工具？

13:14 怎么做最好的？

13:16 确保它被全球广泛采用？

13:18 你要靠AI做点事，不停试。

13:22 如果只是让AI勉强做一点，不算有趣。

13:27 但如果能让它完成关键任务，就是“0到1”的时刻。

13:30 你要考虑几乎所有产品服务、

13:32 历史上所有想法，

13:36 你都能用AI做得更好，

13:39 还有无数以往不可行、

13:42 现在变得可行的事物。

13:44 你要争取成为第一个把这些做出来的人。

13:47 而要成为第一个，

13:48 就是得先去做点什么试试。

13:52 如果这月做不了，四周后试试。

13:57 现在正处于关键转折点，

14:01 历史上从未有过的事，

14:05 突然变得技术上可行。

14:07 我记得50、40年前MIT，

14:12 AI实验室大力做语音识别，

14:14 尝试让电脑能说话，

14:17 花了几十年，

14:19 突然一年前，

14:21 点了一下，开始工作，

14:26 我们快接近能立刻执行且对话者几乎立刻理解

14:29 了。

14:33 技术会失败，直到成功。

14:37 我建议去做你觉得重要的事，坚持，

14:41 用尽各种工具和方式，

14:44 坚持下去，总会突破。

14:47 - 事态发展速度真快，

14:50 尤其是我感觉1月1日那天爆发，

14:52 真是各种精彩事件发生。

14:55 我们这边和Spiral团队玩AI玩得很开心。

14:58 - 好的，如果让你选一件或多件东西，

15:02 你希望有人用AI结合比特币来做，

15:04 有什么梦想产品或想法？

15:07 - 我希望比特币融入更多事物。

15:08 我想看到手机原生支持比特币，

15:12 每台安卓手机、iPhone都支持。

15:16 操作系统和企业操作系统都内置。

15:18 金融应用也支持。

15:21 然后有些革命性想法，

15:24 有没有哪个产品嵌入比特币，

15:27 用比特币驱动产品运行十年？

15:30 打个比方，

15:33 我有个产品电池能用十年，

15:35 那会很酷。

15:37 比特币是金融电池。

15:39 你能否设计出由比特币驱动的产品？

15:42 保险。

15:43 我想看到保险由比特币驱动。

15:46 这样能给你赔五到十倍，

15:49 费用降十倍，

15:51 且持久。

15:53 - 太对了。

15:54 - 类似这样，嵌入比特币能改善很多东西。

15:57 - 100%。

15:57 - 好。

15:58 还有一分钟。

15:59 最后一个快问，

16:02 你会给听众留下一句

16:04 最深刻的想法，你会说什么？

16:07 - 这个十年里，

16:11 你可以用数字资本、

16:15 数字资产、数字智能和数字技术，

16:19 让世界变得更好。

16:23 无论你看什么，

16:25 无论是金融、教育、

16:28 物流、产品还是服务，

16:31 每一件事都可以大幅改善，

16:34 做得更好、更便宜、更强、更快。

16:38 我觉得接下来的十年极有可能是创造

16:43 最大繁荣的创新十年，

16:46 在整个人类历史上。

16:48 所以如果你觉得自己错过了机会，

16:51 太晚了，所有东西都有人发明了，

16:54 你想做iPhone、Facebook，没关系，

16:57 你还没错过。

17:00 世界给了你这些伟大工具，

17:04 18岁的年轻人都能抓住任何AI，

17:07 抓住任何数字资产，

17:10 去试任何想法，

17:12 很可能会找到支持。

17:19 X（推特）让你触达数百万、数千万甚至数亿人，

17:22 你有数字通信、

17:24 数字商务、数字资产，

17:26 数字智能，

17:28 这是数字世界，

17:29 这是更好的世界。

17:31 我鼓励大家行动起来。

17:32 - 这是绝佳的结束语。

17:36 非常感谢你来做客。

17:40 听众们可能已经知道

17:41 去哪关注你，但有没有特别渠道

17:43 你想提一下，或者直接去X。

17:46 - 我的X账号是S-A-Y-L-R，saylor。

17:49 网站michael.com，

17:53 所有关于比特币的内容在hope.com，

17:55 比特币是希望，访问hope.com或michael.com，

17:59 或者X上的saylor，谢谢支持，

18:03 期待继续同行。

18:06 - 我也一样，非常感谢。

18:07 祝你有愉快的一天，

18:10 我们见证美好天气。

18:12 - 很好，谢谢。

0:00 - Michael Saylor, welcome to Presidio Bitcoin

0:03 and the 21 and 21 show.

0:05 I'm so excited to have you here.

0:06 - It's an awesome day.

0:07 - Yes, you hit like summer in San Francisco

0:10 and it's beautiful out.

0:12 - It's happened to be here, it's a glorious place.

0:15 We're inspiring.

0:16 - Thank you, so I have some questions laid out.

0:18 So we're gonna try to get through as many as we can

0:21 in 21 minutes, are you ready?

0:22 - Yeah, let's do it.

0:23 - Okay, let's do it.

0:24 So the first question is,

0:26 so you've been one of the most influential voices

0:29 in bringing Bitcoin to mainstream audiences,

0:31 both on the individual and the corporate level.

0:35 So let's top of mind for you in 2026.

0:37 - 2026 is a great year, a transition year

0:43 where we're seeing the large banks embrace Bitcoin.

0:46 We're launching all these digital credit products

0:49 like Stretch to retail investors and retirees

0:53 and corporate treasures and financiers.

0:56 And that's a great new group of supporters for Bitcoin.

0:59 We've got probably the most supportive set

1:03 of financial regulators and the history of the industry

1:07 going into the Fed at Treasury, at the CFD, the SEC.

1:11 So, and we've got the Clarity Act soon to be passed,

1:15 which is just very enormously legitimizing

1:17 for the entire industry.

1:18 So I'm just looking forward to the advance

1:23 and the expansion of the industry

1:24 as it integrates into the mainstream financial world.

1:28 - It's great to see, yes.

1:29 There's so much going on this year, big year.

1:31 My second question is,

1:34 so you've labeled Bitcoin as digital property.

1:38 What's your take on Bitcoin as spending money?

1:41 - I think that what's gonna happen is

1:43 we're gonna use the first layer of Bitcoin as digital capital.

1:47 I think you're gonna see an explosion

1:49 of digital credit at the second layer.

1:51 I think that you're gonna see digital money

1:54 or digital currency at the third layer.

1:56 And the third layer is going to be a,

1:59 call it a Bitcoin-backed stablecoin

2:01 or it's gonna be a savings coin.

2:03 It'll be like the dollar.

2:05 You'll be able to move it around as a medium exchange.

2:08 It will be integrated into all of the trillions

2:10 of products and services that are priced in dollars

2:15 and all of the hundreds of millions of companies

2:18 that take and spend dollars,

2:20 but it will offer a much stronger yield.

2:23 More like a six, seven, eight percent yield,

2:26 which outstrips the cost of inflation.

2:29 And that'll be strong, high-powered money built on Bitcoin.

2:34 - I mean, what do you think about merchants?

2:38 Like how would you tell them that it's a good way

2:40 for them to accept that form of payment?

2:43 - I think that'll be an asset stablecoins.

2:45 I think that everybody that takes a dollar

2:48 anywhere in the world will have that.

2:50 You'll be able to convert that into dollars

2:52 and pay for anything.

2:53 - Just auto-comfort, yeah.

2:54 - Yeah, I think what we're saying is digital currency

2:56 is primarily gonna be the dollar.

2:58 I think the dollar is spreading everywhere in the world

3:03 and it's replacing the euro, the pound, the yen.

3:08 Pretty much in Europe, people don't want the euro,

3:10 they want the dollar.

3:11 So the dollar is actually emerging as the global currency.

3:16 The dollar on digital rails is the crypto

3:20 or digital version of it.

3:23 But the big breakthrough now is the ability

3:25 to create a digital currency that's backed by Bitcoin

3:29 that offers yields that are two, three or four times higher

3:33 than currencies backed by fiat.

3:37 - You think that as this happens

3:39 and Bitcoin just becomes so much more normal

3:41 and even as people as they buy Bitcoin in the form of equity,

3:46 you think a lot of these investors

3:47 or people who are coming into it

3:48 will still understand what the Bitcoin ethos are

3:51 and like what it came to be

3:53 where they'll just become more top of her,

3:54 kind of not top of mind.

3:58 - I think that there'll be a group,

3:59 the people, the companies and the individuals

4:02 and the large holders and the advocates

4:07 and the developers will continue to carry forward

4:10 the Bitcoin ideology.

4:13 And of course, any technician will understand

4:15 the Bitcoin technology.

4:17 But I think we're headed toward a world

4:19 where there's a billion people,

4:21 they just want a bank account to pay us to make percent.

4:24 And I was like six year old girl,

4:26 75 year old retiree.

4:28 What they're gonna know is that digital money

4:30 is powered by Bitcoin.

4:31 And it's kind of like your electricity

4:35 came from a nuclear reactor

4:37 and you don't really know how to create a nuclear reactor

4:40 or you don't know how tricky it is,

4:42 but you know it's like really good cheap electricity.

4:45 And so I really think that as Bitcoin spreads,

4:48 what you're gonna have is a group of people

4:51 that understand very intricately the technology,

4:55 what the great masses of people is like,

4:57 they don't wanna know how the plane works,

4:59 they don't wanna know how the car works,

5:00 they don't wanna know where the electricity comes from.

5:03 They don't wanna know how their food was,

5:05 like most people don't know, you know,

5:07 how you create a Coca-Cola beverage

5:09 or you know, how do you create these things?

5:11 Nobody knows how to make an iPhone.

5:13 All they know is that they've got this insanely good product

5:17 that solves the problems in their life

5:19 and it's based upon superior technology.

5:22 - I totally agree with you

5:23 that as long as people know that,

5:25 they don't need to get into the weeds

5:26 and some of us here in a presidio-Bitcoin.

5:29 But yes, okay, I think both of us feel optimistic

5:35 about Bitcoin's future, but maybe let's think

5:37 of a different type of future.

5:39 Grim one and Bitcoin has failed.

5:41 Why do you think that it failed?

5:45 - Bitcoin's not gonna fail.

5:46 It's gonna succeed because Bitcoin represents economic

5:49 empowerment to everybody on the planet.

5:51 Bitcoin represents a protocol for economic prosperity.

5:56 It's kind of like we're speaking English

5:58 and you're saying, well, what do people stop speaking English

6:02 or just stop speaking?

6:03 What do people stop speaking to each other?

6:05 I don't think they're gonna stop speaking to each other.

6:08 If you had Arabic math or you had math,

6:10 it's what do people stop using math?

6:13 I think they'll keep using math.

6:14 I think they'll keep using English.

6:15 I think they'll keep using Bitcoin because people need math

6:20 to create machines that work and to engage in commerce

6:24 and they need language to coordinate with each other

6:28 and they need Bitcoin if they're going to engage

6:31 in rational economic transactions.

6:34 So it won't fail.

6:35 - Love strong optimism.

6:39 - I agree.

6:40 Okay, I have some fun questions for you.

6:42 - Okay.

6:43 - So I know you went to MIT.

6:44 - My dad did too.

6:46 So I've heard about kind of some of the famous,

6:48 like clever hacks and pranks that have happened at MIT.

6:52 Do you have any stories that you like to tell?

6:54 - Let's see, once our fraternity,

7:00 we hijacked an elevator and then we set it up

7:04 and with the office of the dean,

7:07 we put all the furniture of the dean into the elevator

7:09 and then we locked it off so that you had to have

7:12 a special code in order to get the elevator

7:14 and in order to create the hack,

7:17 we actually rigged the entire thing with its own chandelier

7:20 and we lit up the chandelier.

7:22 - Oh my gosh.

7:23 - In some part, the elevator opens

7:25 and it's like this strange guy sitting at a desk

7:29 with a chandelier talking.

7:31 - That's a good one.

7:32 - That's a good one.

7:33 Okay, another question.

7:35 So I saw that you did play the guitar,

7:38 do you still play the guitar?

7:40 If so, what do you like to play?

7:42 - I used to play in high school and college.

7:46 Sometimes I play for myself, mostly Beatles tunes.

7:49 - Ooh, Beatles tunes.

7:50 Okay, that's a good one.

7:53 Okay, one more fun question for you.

7:54 So your self-portrait images on Twitter

7:59 have become iconic.

8:01 What AI tools, if any, are you using

8:04 to generate these images?

8:06 - A whole mixture of them,

8:08 some of them came from mid-journey,

8:11 some of them come from Brock.

8:14 Some of them, I don't generate at all.

8:16 Other people generate them for me

8:17 and they use all sorts of other tools.

8:20 So a lot of times, most of them actually,

8:22 I didn't generate.

8:24 So if you look at them, you'll see I tagged the people,

8:26 the artists that does generate them.

8:29 You know, the most prolific, atlas, hodl,

8:33 LaDozier, et cetera, Janice.

8:37 You'll see they've done really good ones

8:39 and they use a variety of tools.

8:40 Okay, are there anything that you've learned

8:44 from playing around with AI tools?

8:45 Have you been vibe-coding anything fun?

8:49 - In fact, all of the digital credit instruments

8:52 we created, we did $8 billion of issuance

8:55 of digital credit last year, approximately.

8:57 They were all created with AI.

8:59 And so stretch, which is the premier digital credit

9:04 that I think will use to create all sorts

9:05 of digital money and digital currency type instruments

9:10 that would not exist without AI.

9:15 So we use AI a lot in designing securities

9:18 and in capital market strategies.

9:21 You know, I use AI sometimes if I'm gonna say something

9:25 and I have it edit my syntax and check

9:27 and make sure that I spelled everything correctly.

9:32 Sometimes I'll take an image and I'll post it in the AI

9:35 and say, I think I wanna say this, but do you agree?

9:38 It'll tell me, well, you could say it better this way.

9:42 If you said it this way, it's more like Michael Saylor.

9:44 So the AI will actually correct me

9:46 and tell me how Michael Saylor would really say the thing.

9:48 - Well, that's what I--

9:49 - Which I find to be amusing.

9:50 - Is it right, usually?

9:52 - Yeah, oftentimes it's actually right.

9:53 It actually tells me how to be me better than I would be me.

9:56 - It's a crazy world that's happening.

9:58 - It sure is.

9:59 - Well, that's awesome.

10:00 That strategy is thinking a lot about like using AI tools.

10:03 Very cool to hear.

10:05 - I'd love to hear your thoughts if you're thinking much

10:08 about generally like the intersection of Bitcoin and AI

10:11 and how you think that can maybe play out in a positive way.

10:14 - Yeah, well, I think number one,

10:16 AI is gonna radically transform every product and service

10:20 and every role in our civilization.

10:24 And, you know, one of the more negatives

10:27 is it's demonetizing human capital.

10:29 It's like, if your company had 15,000 trained professionals,

10:34 it's more challenging because it's possible

10:36 the AI might start to automate out 8,000 of those jobs.

10:40 But on the other hand, as a demonetized human capital,

10:43 it accelerates the transition of capital to digital capital.

10:47 So it's monetizing digital capital and that's what Bitcoin is.

10:50 So broadly speaking, as you see this develop,

10:55 it's driving a lot of wealth into digital capital.

10:59 I think that's positive.

11:00 - I think there are a lot of interesting applications of AI.

11:04 You know, in theory, you can create an AI

11:07 that's transnational, you can capitalize it with Bitcoin,

11:10 you can release it to the universe

11:12 and it can become autonomous.

11:14 And you couldn't capitalize an AI with fiat currency

11:19 or any kind of conventional security portfolio.

11:26 So you may see autonomous creatures or autonomous actors

11:31 that are capitalized with Bitcoin going forward.

11:33 That would be interesting.

11:35 I think it's inevitable that the AIs will do things faster

11:39 and more sophisticated.

11:40 So in a world of a billion AIs, talking to a billion AIs,

11:45 a billion times an hour on Saturday night,

11:48 they're gonna bypass conventional analog assets

11:51 and they're gonna bypass traditional financial systems.

11:55 And they're going to want to move digital assets,

11:59 digital currency, digital capital around

12:02 on a digital standard.

12:03 And of course, the two things that Bitcoin offers

12:06 that are just really important are,

12:11 it offers an uncorruptible network of capital

12:15 or source of capital, so it is that.

12:20 But also it offers an immutable global source of truth.

12:26 And integrity.

12:27 So I think the AIs will want to use that for authentication.

12:32 I also think that if the AIs began to imitate us

12:36 in phishing attacks, then the importance

12:38 of cryptographic verification will become more important.

12:41 And so authentication and verification,

12:44 cryptographically, we'll start to absorb its authenticity

12:49 or derive its authenticity of veracity

12:53 from the Bitcoin network underlying

12:54 because the Bitcoin network and Bitcoin transactions

12:59 are the gold standard of authentication and veracity.

13:04 So I think in this era, Bitcoin

13:08 and all the underlying things that represents

13:11 are going to grow more and more important

13:13 to the digital economy.

13:15 - I totally agree and it's honestly really cool

13:17 to hear that you're thinking that too,

13:19 'cause we're thinking a lot about Bitcoin

13:20 being spending money for these agents.

13:23 And maybe there's been Bitcoin as digital property,

13:27 we're doing stuff to make it plushy,

13:29 to make Bitcoin more as spending money in retail,

13:31 but there's maybe going to be this new wave

13:33 where Bitcoin is spending money for agents.

13:35 - Yes, there's no telling what they'll do,

13:39 but one thing we know is they're going to want to move

13:43 money at the speed of light,

13:46 and they're going to want to engage in commerce

13:48 at the speed of light.

13:49 They'll want to move a million times faster

13:52 than any kind of analog or human limited system would move.

13:57 And so if you want all of these digital systems

14:01 reach their full potential,

14:04 you need a digital network, digital capital,

14:07 digital currency, digital authentication,

14:12 digital networks, and you need to do it natively

14:16 in cyberspace, you can't have something

14:20 which is not a native cyber asset

14:24 that's a better instrument with final settlement.

14:26 And so Bitcoin offers final settlement

14:29 as opposed to conditional settlement.

14:32 And so the difference between final settlement

14:37 is the difference between an energy rich environment

14:41 in cyberspace or just the shadows or silhouettes of energy.

14:49 You want to do something that's real and substantial,

14:52 you're going to need to move digital capital,

14:55 digital property, digital currency

14:58 that doesn't rely on a custodian

15:00 in the real world for final settlement.

15:02 - 100%.

15:04 I have one more AI question for you.

15:06 So in this kind of world where we're seeing this big shift

15:09 into AI, what kind of advice would you maybe give

15:12 to people as they think about different unique ways

15:16 to add value or maybe different career paths

15:18 for young people to explore?

15:19 - I think I would allocate a lot of time

15:24 to learning how to use AI's.

15:28 I would probably pick a few, I would cycle through them,

15:31 I would test them.

15:33 And I think I would be challenging

15:35 and to do something very, very useful, push them.

15:38 If you're a musician, try to compose a song,

15:41 then try to compose an album, right?

15:43 If you're an artist, first try to compose the picture

15:47 then the comic book, then the book,

15:49 then the television show, then the movie,

15:52 then the TV series, right?

15:55 Pushing harder and harder for us.

15:58 How do we compose a credit instrument

15:59 that we can sell billions and billions of dollars of?

16:03 How do we build the best one?

16:05 How do we build the best one

16:06 and make sure that there's massive global adoption, right?

16:10 You have to, you want to do something with the AI's

16:15 and, you know, it's, if it almost does something,

16:20 you know, then it's not that interesting.

16:23 But if you keep pushing and you find a way

16:26 to get it to do the thing, it's a zero to one moment.

16:30 And so right now you have to consider

16:32 that pretty much every product and service

16:34 and idea that's ever been implemented

16:36 in the history of the world,

16:38 you may be able to reimplement better

16:41 and a host of millions or tens of millions of ideas

16:44 that have never been practical to implement

16:47 or are now practical.

16:49 And I think you want to be the first person

16:51 to figure out how to do something new and useful.

16:56 And the only way to be the first person

16:57 to figure how to do something is try to do something, right?

17:01 You know, so I think, and if you can't do it this month,

17:06 in four weeks, you might be able to do it.

17:10 So we're at this very pivotal transition point

17:13 where every few weeks, something that was not workable ever

17:18 in the history of the world,

17:19 all of a sudden becomes technically practical, right?

17:24 I remember at MIT, 50 years ago, 40 years ago,

17:28 the AI lab, they were trying to get speech recognition to work

17:31 and try to talk to computers, get computers to talk like,

17:33 they spent 40 years.

17:35 And then they spent years and years and years.

17:36 And then all of a sudden, you know, a year ago,

17:39 click, it started working and we're just about,

17:44 you know, we're just about to get to the point

17:46 where not only will it work,

17:47 it'll work instantly and the person that you talk to

17:49 will have like almost instant awareness of everything.

17:53 And so technology fails until it succeeds.

17:57 My advice is attempt to do something

18:01 that's really important to you and just keep trying,

18:05 use every possible tool in every possible mode

18:08 and keep at it, you know, at some point,

18:11 you'll actually make a breakthrough.

18:13 - Yeah, it's crazy how quick things are moving,

18:16 especially I feel like Jan one happened

18:18 and like, oh, all this cool stuff is happening.

18:21 We've been playing around a lot with AI here

18:24 and on the spiral team, so it's been really fun.

18:27 Okay, so if you could like have one thing

18:31 or multiple things that you would love to see

18:33 someone maybe build with AI that utilizes Bitcoin.

18:36 Do you have any like dream products or things

18:39 you would like to see someone do?

18:41 - Yeah, I think I'd love to see Bitcoin

18:43 get embedded in more things.

18:45 I'd love to see native Bitcoin support

18:49 get embedded into every Android phone, into every iPhone.

18:52 I'd love to see native Bitcoin support

18:54 get embedded into every operating system

18:57 and corporate operating systems.

18:59 I'd love to see it get embedded

19:01 in every financial application.

19:05 And then I think that there are some revolutionary ideas.

19:08 Like what have you actually created a product

19:10 that had Bitcoin embedded in it

19:12 and it used the Bitcoin to power the product for a decade?

19:16 Like, you know, in theory,

19:18 if I had a product that had a battery

19:20 that lasted 10 years, that's really cool.

19:22 So Bitcoin's a financial battery.

19:24 Is there a way that you can create a product

19:27 that's powered by Bitcoin?

19:29 Oh, insurance.

19:30 I'd love to see insurance get powered by Bitcoin

19:32 because if insurance is powered by Bitcoin,

19:36 then it would pay you five or 10 times as much money

19:39 and it would cost you 10 times less

19:41 and it would last longer.

19:43 - That's so true.

19:44 - And so a lot of things like that that can be improved

19:46 if you just embed Bitcoin in them.

19:49 - 100%.

19:50 Okay.

19:51 We got one minute left.

19:52 So one quick last question.

19:55 You could leave our listeners

19:57 just like a single lasting thought.

20:00 I wonder what you just said. What would it be?

20:02 - You can remake the world for the better

20:06 using digital capital, digital assets,

20:10 digital intelligence and digital technology this decade.

20:15 And every single thing that we look around at,

20:18 everything in our lives,

20:20 whether it's a financial thing or it's an education thing

20:23 or it's a logistics thing

20:26 or it's a product or a service thing,

20:28 every single thing can be dramatically improved,

20:32 made better, made cheaper, made stronger, made faster.

20:36 And I think probably this decade, this coming 10 years,

20:41 presumably this is the decade

20:44 of the greatest number of innovations

20:46 that create the greatest amount of prosperity

20:48 for the human race of any 10 years

20:50 in the history of humanity.

20:52 So if you're sitting around thinking you missed it,

20:55 you're too late, all the things have been invented,

20:58 you wish you had done the iPhone or the Facebook

21:02 or the whatever, you haven't missed it.

21:05 You're not too late, right?

21:07 The world has handed you all of these brilliant tools

21:10 and 18 year old can go and they can grab any AI

21:14 and they can grab any digital asset

21:16 and they can try any idea

21:18 and they'll probably find support for it somewhere.

21:24 X lets you reach millions or tens or hundreds of millions

21:28 of people, you've got digital communication,

21:29 you've got digital commerce, you've got digital assets,

21:32 you've got digital intelligence, it's a digital world

21:35 and it's a better world.

21:36 So I would encourage everybody to just go out

21:38 and do something.

21:39 - That's a fantastic ending thought.

21:43 Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.

21:47 Of course our listeners probably already know

21:48 where to follow you, but if there's any unique spot

21:50 or things you wanna shout or just go to X.

21:53 You can find my handle on X, S-A-Y-L-R, sailor.

21:56 You know, my website's michael.com, Michael.com.

22:00 Everything that I know about Bitcoin,

22:02 all my links about Bitcoin are hope.com, Bitcoin is hope.

22:05 So go check out hope.com or michael.com

22:09 or sailor on X and I appreciate your support.

22:13 Look forward to continuing the journey together.

22:16 - Me too, well, thank you so much.

22:17 I hope you have a wonderful day

22:20 and we're seeing you in gorgeous weather.

22:22 It's going well so far.

22:23 - Great, thank you.

Moon

· 1d

📽️6年前 #Solana 正式上线。

价格一度飙升至260美元，随后跌至8美元，又回升至295美元。

其间：围绕JPEG图片构建起一个经济体系，数百万种迷因币相继问世，其中多款市值突破数十亿美元，美国总统也发行了自己的代币，而去中心化交易所（DEX）年交易量更突破1.95万亿美元。

从白皮书到经济体系。以下是一位亲历者的完整故事。

https://x.com/SolanaFloor/status/2034665118848708679?s=20

中文 English

0:00 六年里，Solana 从一个全新的区块链变成了

0:04 美国总统发起

0:04 自己表情包币的链，一款失败得惨烈的手机

0:08 却变成了

0:09 年度最佳投资，因为圣诞节空投了一个叫 bonk 的狗狗币。

0:13 Jack Dorsey 称它为 SQ Lana，

0:13 最终还在上面搭建了稳定币支付系统，

0:18 服务他那 5700 万 Cash App 用户。

0:19 价格曾是 260 美元，跌至 8 美元，又涨到 295 美元，

0:27 但有件事

0:28 经常被忽略。Solana 是第一条

0:31 真正以使用为目的建造的区块链。

0:32 我说的使用是指各种用途。不论人们想用它做什么，

0:36 生态系统都积极支持。

0:37 想买卖猴子头像？走起。想一个月内发行百万代币，

0:41 搭建发射台。

0:41 想把整个美国国债市场代币化？来吧，

0:45 华尔街。

0:45 我们从疯狂猿猴到总统发币，再到万亿美元机构在链上代币化资产，

0:49 这一切链都能承载。

0:50 如果你经历过这一切，你已经知道了。如果没经历，好好准备，

0:55 因为这是金融史上

0:55 最荒诞的六年，我几乎全程见证。生日快乐，

0:59 Solana。来看看完整故事。

1:00 Solana 于 2020 年 3 月主网上线，当时没人知道它。

1:03 创始人 ex-

1:05 Qualcomm，喝了两杯咖啡和一瓶啤酒，碰出了一个疯狂想法——历史证明（Proof of History），

1:13 打造一个快到能

1:15 真正比肩普通应用的区块链，不只是加密行业意义上的快，

1:19 是真正所有人都认同的快。

1:20 第一年，坦白说，没多少人注意到。

1:24 直到 2021 年来了，Solana 夏天爆发，

1:25 如果你在场，肯定记得那种感觉。

1:28 SOL

1:29 从 1.5 美元涨到 260 美元，NFT 爆炸，Degenerate Ape Academy、Solana Monkey Business，

1:34 DeGods，Steve Harvey 头像换成了 Solana 猴子头像，

1:36 感觉美妙极了。

1:43 新的 DeFi 协议每周上线，

1:43 让我印象深刻的是那时一切的极速体验。交易立刻完成，铸币立刻完成。

1:48 而你之前用以太坊，

1:49 得付 80 美元手续费，等十分钟。Solana 上就是秒成交，

1:53 不到一分钱。

1:53 这是我最喜欢的视频之一，说明了这一点。有人问我怎么负担得起曼哈顿生活？

1:57 我说我用 Solana，

1:58 平均交易费仅 0.0025 美元，而以太坊是 40 美元。

2:02 而 Solana 换手只需几秒，

2:03 以太坊平均需要十分钟。也正因如此，我决定跟 Solana 合作。

2:07 它更快，更便宜，

2:08 我押注效率，推荐你们去体验。

2:15 我们认为你用的 L1 要重新考虑交易费，

2:16 重新思考它，水逆，谢谢。建设者们也始终在你旁边。

2:21 我记得早期的讨论，如果你有问题，

2:23 开发者会跳出来帮你，

2:24 不是社区经理，是真正的开发者。那种氛围定调了之后的一切。

2:29 这不是理论区块链，

2:29 是真正有人用，有人基建，有人实时修复问题。

2:34 这种文化从第一天就有。

2:35 全部都完美了吗？不。

2:38 有个叫 Ian Makhalino 的开发者秘密操盘 11 个身份，

2:43 Sabre、Sunny、

2:44 Casio、Arrow，同时打造了看似完整的 DeFi 生态，

2:48 一人撑起数十亿 TVL。

2:49 光速发展时就会出现这种状况。

2:52 但这成了传说，

2:53 人人学会不轻信表面。

2:56 早期协议被攻击。Mango Markets 被 Ovi Eisenberg 攻击 1.16 亿美元，

3:00 他还直接发推：

3:01 “要抓我吗？”抓，是的，他们要抓你。

3:04 随着 Solana 成长，不停挑战区块链极限。

3:07 挑战边界，就会找到短板。

3:08 网络因实际使用量激增而扩张，不是光持币，

3:11 是真正用于

3:12 NFT、DeFi、游戏。随之而来的是前所未有的工程难题，

3:15 没人解决过。

3:16 Solana 跟别人不同的是，出了问题他们公开解决。

3:20 创始人深夜推特争论

3:20 本地费市场，优先费，调度器重写，快协议迁移。

3:24 这不是公关，

3:25 是真实的技术辩论，社区全程在线。

3:30 你早上醒来刷推，

3:31 就能看到创始人与验证者推特争论交易调度细节。

3:34 像一场开源大师课现场直播，

3:35 我超爱，看得入迷，

3:36 跟着创始人辩论学知识。

3:37 每个问题都催生真正解决方案。

3:40 发现的每个瓶颈都被系统升级。

3:43 测试、上线，

3:44 快、毁掉，修复更快。

3:46 这是哲学，

3:47 而且有效。网络持续改进，

3:50 需求真实，

3:51 团队拒绝放慢节奏。

3:54 与此同时，

3:55 Jack Dorsey 称它 Esculana，比特币极端主义者狂嘲，

3:58 我们笑而不语。

4:00 Solana 官方推特改名 Solana Was A Joke，气氛轻松，

4:03 要是太开心没人介意。

4:04 2022 年 11 月，Solana 在里斯本举办断点大会，

4:08 气氛热烈。

4:10 他们发布了 Saga 手机，

4:11 路线图雄心勃勃，社区热情高涨。大会于 11 月 7 日结束，

4:15 11 月 11 日 FTX 申请破产，

4:16 4 天后，SPF，Solana 最大的支持者之一，

4:21 Serum，整个 FTX Solana 生态，

4:22 数十亿 SOL 资产一夜蒸发。

4:27 舆论立刻转变，

4:27 不再只关注价格，人们开始怀疑 Solana 是否能存活。

4:32 CNBC 称

4:32 500 亿美元市值被抹去，《愚人报》问道“是不是该放弃 Solana？”

4:36 SOL 跌至 8 美元，我记得那种感觉。

4:38 看着投资组合从高点跌了 96%，DeGods 和 Utes，当时 Solana 顶级项目，

4:42 宣布退出 Solana。

4:43 但聊天群体并未沉寂，NFT 频道和图表依然活跃，

4:48 社区团结，

4:49 即便熊市深入，团队离开，NFT 依然迎来小规模牛市。

4:53 建设者没走，重要 Discord 仍活跃，

4:56 Totally

4:57 不断发三表情和犀利观点。Raj 不停建设，Phantom 团队持续更新，

5:01 Jupiter 团队不断优化聚合器。

5:02 慢慢地事情开始明朗。

5:03 留下的人不仅为价格，他们知道 Solana 真的是最好的开发之地。

5:07 2023 几乎整年，

5:08 SOL 在 8 到 30 美元之间波动。艰难度过的人

5:13 是 Solana 如今基石。然后反击来了，

5:17 以最 Solana 方式。

5:18 2022 年圣诞节，Bonk 给社区空投狗狗币。

5:23 圣诞快乐，

5:23 送你一个表情包币。还记得 Saga 手机吗？我是最初买家之一，

5:26 大约卖了 2500 台。

5:27 每台 Saga 都附送 3000 万 Bonk 代币。

5:31 当 Bonk 价格飙升时，

5:32 空投价值超过手机本身。Saga 手机在 eBay 售价 5000 美元，

5:36 且一机难求。

5:37 加密硬件史上最大失败，却成年度最赚钱科技购买，

5:43 这一切只有 Solana 办得到。

5:44 用户体验也持续提升。

5:47 Phantom 最近下载量达千万，

5:49 真是加密钱包之最，遥遥领先。

5:51 Jupiter 以巨大优势成了 DeFi 最佳兑换体验。我记得有次

5:55 我在推特抱怨 Jupiter 兑换没成功，

5:56 几分钟后就有人私信我要交易哈希，

5:58 要帮查原因。

5:59 这种事别的链很少见。开发者把用户当客户，

6:02 活跃在 Discord，

6:03 回应问题，当天发布修复补丁。

6:07 用户体验异常棒。棒到我自己还开了播客分享这段经历。

6:11 NFT 牛市堪称传奇，

6:12 1 万个 NFT 系列秒售罄。

6:13 Magic Eden 估值破 10 亿，成为独角兽。它们知名的 Bloonsville 上线，

6:17 开发者上线即抽走近 45 万美元公款，

6:18 嘲讽整个 Magic Eden 团队。

6:23 恶名昭彰的红气球表情成了传说，

6:23 尤其他第二次带着 Reptilian Renegades 重复失信，

6:26 并且承认曾割过 Doodled Dragons。

6:27 三年半后被绳之以法。他的故事深入人心，

6:31 任何大 NFT 系列结尾

6:32 加个气球表情成了不大不小的恐惧。

6:36 Solana 上 NFT 交易体验极佳，科比称 NFT 是烂币但带图标一语成谶。

6:39 泡沫顶点，

6:40 但这催生了疯狂的表情包币时代。

6:44 2024 年 1 月 Pumpfun 上线，

6:45 将一切带到新高度。

6:49 任何人都能秒发代币，

6:50 数百万代币诞生，生态说你想干啥我们都给基础设施。

6:54 答案是，

6:54 看起来啥都想做，一股脑推翻天。

6:58 加了直播，立刻成互联网最疯狂角落。

7:02 开发者直播自焚，

7:02 Anzom 家人代币化，氯胺酮怪人成穷聊经典。

7:06 每天都有新主角。

7:07 疯狂故事之一是表情包币 Slurf，

7:10 开发者钱包误烧 53000 SOL，

7:11 烧失价值 1070 万美元，付诸东流。

7:14 互联网资本市场光速涨跌。

7:17 期间，

7:18 最佳交易体验诞生，最佳钱包，

7:22 最佳聚合，不论你交易猴子头像，发币，

7:26 还是给朋友转账，

7:26 Solana 都更快更便宜更好用。

7:30 这就是为什么人们

7:31 总回来，不只是因为表情包，更因为体验。

7:35 然后主角出现了。我不仅说建造者。

7:38 凯特琳·詹纳

7:38 发了个代币，8 小时市值 4200 万美元，

7:42 彻底割韭菜。

7:44 致所有进入然后骗人割粉丝的名人朋友们，

7:47 非常感谢。

7:47 然后就在就职日前，美国总统在 Solana 发了个表情包币，

7:51 特朗普达到 700 亿美元全稀释市值。

7:52 SOL 跃升至 295 美元新高，只因总统在我们链上发币。

7:56 顺便说一句，

7:57 如果梅拉尼亚币没紧跟着发布，我们可能现在早已进入乌托邦。

8:02 这次发布打破所有记录，

8:03 使 Solana 成为首条单日收益超过 100 亿美元的区块链。

8:08 带来了空前活跃，

8:08 但也导致许多协议因非优先交易停滞，优先手续费涨了 4 倍。

8:12 然后阿根廷总统

8:13 梅勒推 Libra，40 分钟内涨了 5 美元，内部人士亏损 2.5 亿。

8:19 Hayden Davis 等当事内部人士私信曝出

8:22 “老兄们，说实话我们想要榨干这里一切。”

8:25 六年前没这条链，现在两位国家元首都在上面发币，

8:29 无论你觉得不可思议还是疯狂，

8:30 应该都有点这两者。

8:32 这是因为 Solana 足够快，够便宜，也足够好用，

8:35 任何人都能用。

8:36 从开发者 Discord 到美国总统，人人都能用。

8:40 大家一起用。

8:41 让我们花点时间好好回顾一下。Jack Dorsey

8:45 称它

8:45 SQ Lana，还通过 Cash App 为 5700 万用户搭建了稳定币支付。

8:50 没人买的手机，熊市深处的老玩家买了，

8:51 却因圣诞节空投的狗狗币成了年度最佳投资。

8:55 这条链

8:55 曾被讽刺太不稳定，却创下最长连续正常运行纪录。

8:59 Fired

9:00 ancer Live 在主网上线，写出史上最快验证者，

9:03 多团队竞相让 Solana

9:04 更快更便宜。改进持续进行，

9:07 每秒交易超过 3000 笔早已常态。

9:08 六年了，看看这个生态成长。1.95 万亿美元指数交易量，

9:13 仅次于全球 Binance。

9:14 应用收入 23.9 亿美元，7 个应用均超 1 亿美元。

9:18 Western Union 连接 36 万现金提取点，

9:19 Cash App 拥有 5700 万用户，监管资产超 50 万亿美元的 State Street

9:24 正在 Solana 代币化资产。

9:25 ETF 流入 14.5 亿美元，价格跌了 50%。

9:29 从猴子头像到最牛钱包，从 Discord 开发者助力失败兑换，

9:33 到万亿美元机构选 Solana 做清算层。

9:36 从没人买的手机

9:36 到有自己经济体系的 Seeker 第二版，卖出超 15 万台，

9:41 成交额超 30 亿美元，

9:42 构建了 500 多个应用。

9:47 这一切都因为

9:48 一条链说：你想建什么，我们让它成真。

9:51 你想用它做什么，

9:52 我们让它快，便宜，好，让你愿意回头。

9:55 建为用，广泛使用。IBRL（增大带宽，降低延迟）是核心理念，

9:59 这为所有团队提供了广阔的用例。

10:03 作为见证了几乎整个过程的人，

10:03 我学到了，价格其实是故事里最不重要的部分。

10:07 真正的故事是体验：

10:08 交易失败时开发者私信你，建设者经历熊市依然坚持，

10:11 社区价格低至 8 美元还说，“我不走”，

10:12 工程师把每次成长的痛点变成升级，哲学是：

10:16 人们想用我们，就让它用得通。

10:18 每个伟大生态都有传说，

10:20 比特币有披萨，以太坊有 The DAO，Solana 有猴子头像、

10:24 带蝙蝠的狗币，

10:25 两个手机，一个死而复生的开发者，一个有表情包币的总统，

10:29 一个从成长的痛苦跑到

10:30 年交易额超 2 万亿美元的网络。

10:35 从白皮书走到经济，

10:36 从一个工程师的想法走到人人使用的链。

10:40 说实话，

10:40 我们才刚刚开始。生日快乐，Solana，真是段旅程。

0:00 Six years, in six years Solana went from being a brand new blockchain to the

0:04 chain where the

0:04 president of the United States launched his own meme coin, a phone that flopped

0:08 so hard that it

0:09 became the best investment of the year because of a dog coin called bonk that

0:13 air dropped on

0:13 Christmas Day. Jack Dorsey called it SQ Lana and then ultimately built stable

0:18 coin payments on it

0:19 for his 57 million cash app users. The price at $260, then $8 and then $295,

0:27 but here's the thing

0:28 that gets lost in all of that. Solana was the first blockchain that was

0:31 actually built to be used.

0:32 And I mean used for everything. Whatever people wanted to do on it, the

0:36 ecosystem leaned into it.

0:37 You want to trade monkey jpegs? Let's go. You want to launch a million coins in

0:41 a month,

0:41 build the launch pad. You want to tokenize the entire US treasury market? Come

0:45 on in,

0:45 stay street. We went from degenerate apes to presidents launching tokens to

0:49 trillion dollar

0:50 institutions tokenizing assets on chain. And the chain handled all of it. If

0:55 you were here for

0:55 this, you already know. And if you weren't buckle up, because this is the most

0:59 absurd six years in

1:00 the history of finance. And I was there for almost all of it. Happy birthday,

1:03 Solana. Let's go through

1:05 the whole story. So Solana launched mainnet in March 2020, totally who is ex-

1:13 qualcom drank two

1:15 coffees in a beer. And he had this crazy idea called proof of history, a way to

1:19 make blockchain so fast

1:20 that it could actually compete with the apps that people were used to, not just

1:24 fast by crypto

1:25 standards, fast by everyone's standards. And for the first year, honestly, not

1:28 many people

1:29 noticed. Then 2021 happened, Solana summer and man, if you were there, you

1:34 remember the feeling.

1:36 Soul went from a $1.50 to $260. NFTs exploded degenerate ape academy, Solana

1:43 monkey business,

1:43 de gods, Steve Harvey changes profile picture to a Solana monkey business. The

1:48 vibes were immaculate.

1:49 New DeFi protocols were launching every week. And the thing that struck me even

1:53 back then was

1:53 how fast everything felt. Swaps were instant, minting was instant. You'd come

1:57 from Ethereum

1:58 where you pay $80 in gas and wait 10 minutes. And on Solana, it was just done.

2:02 A fraction of a penny.

2:03 And now this is one of my favorite videos explaining this. People ask me, how

2:07 do I afford to live in

2:08 Manhattan? I'll tell you, I use Solana, which has .0025 set transaction fees on

2:15 average as opposed to

2:16 Ethereum's $40 transaction fees. And Solana gets this done in only a few

2:21 seconds versus Ethereum's

2:23 average 10 minutes of transaction finalization. And this is why I'm partnering

2:27 with Solana.

2:28 It's faster. It's cheaper. And I am bullish on efficiency. I encourage you to

2:32 check it out.

2:33 We think the L1 you're using rethink how many transaction fees you need to get

2:37 to rethink it.

2:38 Mercury retrograde. Thank you for that. And the builders were right there with

2:42 you.

2:42 I remember the early discourse. If you had a problem, a developer would jump in

2:45 and help you,

2:46 not a community manager and actual dev. That energy set the tone for everything

2:51 that came after.

2:51 This wasn't a blockchain that existed in theory. People were using it, building

2:54 on it and fixing

2:55 things in real time. That culture started on day one. Now, was everything

3:00 perfect? No.

3:01 One developer named Ian Makhalino was secretly running 11 different identities.

3:06 Sabre, Sunny,

3:07 Casio, Arrow, all while creating what looked like an entire DeFi ecosystem. All

3:11 one guy inflating

3:12 TVL by billions. That's the kind of thing that happens when everything is

3:15 moving at the speed of

3:16 light. But that became part of the lore. And everyone learned not to trust

3:20 everyone at face value.

3:21 Early protocols got exploited. Mango markets got hit for $116 million by Ovi

3:26 Eisenberg and posted

3:27 directly on Twitter. What are you going to do? Arrest me? Yes. Yes, they were

3:31 going to arrest you.

3:32 As Solana grew, it continuously pushed the boundaries of what a blockchain

3:35 could handle.

3:36 And when you push boundaries, you find the edges. The network was growing

3:40 because people

3:40 were actually using it and not just holding a token, actually using it for

3:44 things. NFT means

3:45 DeFi gaming and that usage created real engineering challenges that nobody had

3:50 ever solved before.

3:51 And here's what made Solana different from every other chain. When something

3:54 broke,

3:55 they fixed it and they fixed it in public. Totally was on Twitter arguing about

3:58 solutions at 2am.

4:00 Local fee markets, priority fees, scheduler rewrites, quick protocol migration.

4:04 These weren't PR

4:05 statements. They were real time engineering debates happening right in front of

4:09 the entire

4:09 community. You'd wake up, check Twitter and learn about the technical details

4:13 of transaction

4:14 scheduling because the founder was arguing about it with validators on Twitter.

4:17 It was like an

4:18 open source masterclass playing out live. I loved it and followed totally

4:21 debates to learn about

4:22 what was going on. And the thing is, every single one of these problems led to

4:25 a real solution.

4:26 Every edge they found became an upgrade. Testing and production, move fast,

4:29 break things,

4:30 fix them faster. That was the philosophy and it worked. The network kept

4:33 getting better because

4:34 the demand was real and the team refused to slow down. Meanwhile, Jack Dorsey

4:38 was calling

4:38 Esculana. The Bitcoin Maxis were having a field day. And honestly, we laughed

4:42 it off. The Solana

4:43 Twitter account changed its name to Solana was a joke. That's the energy. You

4:46 can't insult people

4:46 who are having too much fun to care. In November of 2022, Solana had just held

4:50 breakpoint in Lisbon. The energy was incredible. They launched the saga phone.

4:53 The roadmap was

4:53 ambitious. The community was fired up. That conference ended on November 7th.

4:58 FTX filed for

4:59 bankruptcy on November 11th. Four days later, SPF had been one of Solana's

5:04 biggest backers.

5:05 Serum, the entire FTX Solana ecosystem, billions in soul holdings, gone

5:10 overnight.

5:10 And the narrative shifted instantly. It wasn't just about price anymore. People

5:14 were questioning

5:14 whether Solana would survive at all. CNBC said that $50 billion in value was

5:19 wiped out. The

5:19 Motley Fool asked, "Is it time to give up on Solana?" Sol hit $8. And I

5:24 remember that feeling.

5:25 Looking at a portfolio down 96% from the highs, DeGods and Utes, the top

5:30 projects on Solana at

5:31 the time, announced that they were leaving Solana. But the group chats, they

5:36 weren't quiet. The

5:37 NFT chats and charts were alive. The communities rallied together and we still

5:41 had a mini bull run

5:43 in NFTs, despite being knee deep in a bear market with teams leaving the chain.

5:48 The builders didn't leave. The discords that mattered stayed active, totally

5:51 kept posting

5:52 three emojis and his hot takes. Raj kept building. The phantom team kept

5:57 shipping updates. The

5:58 Jupiter team kept improving the aggregator and slowly something started to

6:02 become clear.

6:03 The people who were still here weren't just here for the price. They were here

6:07 because Solana was

6:08 genuinely the best place to build and they knew it. There was a range where Sol

6:12 ana stayed between

6:13 $8 to $30 for almost all of 2023. The people who made it through that filter

6:17 are the reason that Solana is what it is today. And then the comeback started

6:22 in the most Solana

6:23 way possible. Christmas Day 2022, Bonk air dropped to the community a dog coin.

6:28 Merry Christmas,

6:29 here's a meme coin. And remember the saga phone? I was one of the original

6:33 buyers. I think it was

6:34 around 2,500 original units sold. While every saga came with 30 million bonk

6:39 tokens, when Bonk's

6:40 price spiked, the air drop became worth more than the phone itself. Sagas were

6:44 selling on eBay for

6:45 $5,000 a piece and the phone sold out. The biggest flop in crypto hardware

6:51 became the most profitable

6:52 tech purchase of the year, only possible on Solana. And the user experience

6:57 just kept getting better.

6:58 Phantom hit 10 million downloads recently. Genuinely, it was the best wallet in

7:01 all of crypto. And it

7:03 wasn't even close. Jupiter became the best swap experience in DeFi by a mile. I

7:07 remember one time

7:08 that I complained on Twitter about a Jupiter swap not going through. And within

7:10 minutes,

7:11 I was DM'd asking for the transaction hash so that they could figure out

7:13 exactly what happened.

7:15 That's the kind of thing you don't see on other chains. The devs treated users

7:18 like customers.

7:19 They were in Discord. They were responding to complaints. They were shipping

7:23 fixes the same day.

7:24 From a user perspective, it was so amazing. It was so amazing in fact that I

7:28 started a podcast to

7:29 share it. The NFT bull run was legendary. 10k NFT collections would sell in

7:33 seconds.

7:34 Magic Eden became a unicorn valued over $1 billion. They famously had a launch

7:39 on their

7:39 platform called Bloonsville. The dev launched it then rubbed the treasury for

7:42 over 450k instantly

7:43 and mocked the whole Magician team. The infamous red balloon emoji became

7:48 legendary,

7:48 especially after he managed to do it again with a second rug with the reptilian

7:51 renegades.

7:52 And he admitted to previously rugging the doodled dragons. He ultimately was

7:55 brought to

7:56 justice three and a half years later. His lore ran deep and there was a good

7:59 percentage chance

8:00 that any big NFT collection could end up being rubbed with a balloon emoji at

8:04 the end.

8:05 Now the trading experience for NFTs on Solana became so good that Kobe calling

8:08 NFTs shitcoins

8:10 with pictures rained true. The market topped, but this led to an insane meme

8:14 coin era.

8:15 Pumpfun launched in January 2024 and took the whole thing to another level.

8:19 Anyone can launch

8:20 a token in seconds. Millions of tokens created. The ecosystem said whatever you

8:24 want to do,

8:24 we'll build the infrastructure for it. And the answer was apparently everything

8:28 all at once.

8:28 They added live streaming and it immediately became the most unhinged corner of

8:32 the internet.

8:32 A developer literally set himself on fire during a live stream.

8:36 Anzom's family members were getting tokenized with ketamine guy became lore.

8:39 Every single day

8:40 there was a new main character. One of the more wild stories was a meme coin

8:43 called Slurf.

8:44 The dev accidentally burned 53,000 Sol in his wallet. A total burn of 10.7

8:48 million burned into

8:50 thin air. The internet capital markets were rising and falling at the speed of

8:53 light.

8:54 And through all of it, the best trading experiences were built. The best

8:57 wallets,

8:58 the best aggregation, whether you were trading monkey jpegs or launching a coin

9:02 or just sending

9:02 money to a friend. Solana was faster, cheaper and better than the alternative.

9:06 That's why people

9:07 kept coming back. Not just because of the memes, because of the experience.

9:11 And then the main character showed up. And I'm not talking about just builders

9:14 here.

9:14 Caitlyn Jenner launched a token. $42 million market cap in eight hours.

9:18 Absolutely rugged.

9:20 Shout out to all the other celebrities who showed up, took the money and rugged

9:23 their fans. We

9:23 really appreciate you guys. And then right before inauguration day, the

9:27 president of the United

9:28 States launched a meme coin on Solana. Trump hit a $70 billion fully diluted

9:34 market cap.

9:35 Sol touched $295 shortly after a new all time high, because the president

9:39 launched a meme coin

9:40 on our chain. Also, I swear, if Melania coin wasn't launched right after, we

9:44 would be living in a

9:45 complete utopia right now. This launch actually broke all the records, making

9:51 Solana the first

9:51 chain to break $10 billion of revenue in a day. This launch brought in so much

9:57 more

9:57 activity Solana than ever before. It left a lot of protocols unusable because

10:01 non priority

10:02 transactions basically halted because priority fees spiked by four times. Then

10:07 Argentina's president

10:08 Mele promoted Libra. It pumped a $5 and 40 minutes. Insiders dumped $250

10:14 million in losses.

10:15 Hayden Davis and other insiders that launched that were caught red handed in

10:18 private messages

10:19 saying, yeah, fellas, to be honest, we are trying to max extract on this one.

10:22 Two sitting presidents on Solana. Six years ago, this chain didn't exist. Now

10:26 heads of state are

10:27 launching tokens on it. Whether you think that's incredible or insane, it's

10:30 probably both. But it

10:32 happened because Solana was fast enough cheap enough and accessible enough for

10:35 anyone to use.

10:36 From a developer and discord to the president of the United States, built to be

10:40 used by everyone.

10:41 Let's just take a few seconds to appreciate the full arc here. Jack Dorsey

10:45 called it

10:45 SQ Lana, then built stablecoin payments on it through cash out for his 57

10:50 million users.

10:51 A phone only the true OGs bought deep in a bear market became one of the best

10:55 investments

10:55 of the year because of a dog coin that airdropped on Christmas Day. The chain

10:59 that everyone said

10:59 was too unstable has had its longest uptime streak in its history. With Fired

11:04 ancer Live on

11:05 Mainnet, a full second validator written to be the fastest version possible,

11:08 multiple teams are

11:09 now competing to make Solana even faster and cheaper than it already is. The

11:13 improvements are

11:14 ongoing and we regularly see over 3000 transactions per second already.

11:18 So here we are. Six years in. Look at what this ecosystem has become. $1.95

11:24 trillion

11:25 index trading volume, second only to Binance globally. $2.39 billion in app

11:30 revenue with

11:30 seven apps each clearing $100 million. Western Union is connecting 360,000 cash

11:35 payout locations,

11:36 cash app bringing 57 million users. State Street that has over $50 trillion in

11:40 asset under custody

11:41 is tokenizing on Solana. $1.45 billion in ETF inflows while the price dropped

11:47 50%.

11:47 From monkey jpegs to the best wallets ever created, from Discord devs helping

11:52 with failed

11:52 swaps to trillion dollar institutions choosing Solana as their settlement layer

11:56 . From a phone

11:57 that nobody bought to a second version with the seeker that has its own economy

12:02 with over 150,000

12:03 phones sold over $3 billion of volume and over 500 apps built for it. And it

12:08 all happened because

12:09 one chain said, whatever you want to build, we'll make it possible. Whatever

12:12 you want to use it for,

12:14 we'll make it fast enough, cheap enough, and good enough that you'll actually

12:17 want to come back,

12:18 built to be used and used for everything. IBRL, increased bandwidth, reduced

12:23 latency is the mindset.

12:24 And this opens up the use cases for any team looking to build. Here's what I've

12:29 learned from

12:29 being here for almost all of it. The price is the least interesting part of

12:33 this story. It always

12:34 was the real story is the experience. The devs who DM'd you when your swap

12:38 failed. The builders

12:39 who shipped through a bear market, the community that watched the price at $8

12:43 and said, I'm not

12:44 leaving. The engineers who turned every growing pain into an upgrade. And the

12:47 philosophy that said,

12:48 if people want to use this for something, let them. We'll make it work. Every

12:53 great ecosystem has lore.

12:55 Bitcoin has the pizza. Ethereum has the Dow. Solana has monkey jpegs, a dog

12:59 with a bat, two phones,

13:01 a developer who came back from the dead, a president with a meme coin, and a

13:05 network that went from

13:06 growing pains to processing $2 trillion per year. Six years from a white paper

13:11 to an economy,

13:12 from one engineer's idea to the chain that everyone uses. And honestly, we're

13:17 still just

13:17 getting started. Happy birthday, Solana. What a ride.

Moon

· 1d

介绍 #Codex FX。
法币与稳定币之间转换的新标准。
任何东西都行。 #usdc #usdt #usd1

https://x.com/CodexFX/status/2034622236708003978?s=20

Moon

· 2d

创作者在社交平台上积累了庞大的受众群体，却对粉丝的真实身份一无所知。

@justinblau和@blauyourmind将探讨如何解决这一问题，以及加密技术能为创作者与粉丝的关系带来哪些可能性。

0:47 关于创作者变现的最大误区

2:31 为何创作者与粉丝的关系可以转移到链上

4:41 稳定币与全球互联网产品

6:55 贾斯汀与迈克尔的加密货币入行之路

10:09 创作者变现的替代模式

17:57 人工智能与内容过剩

18:57 为何人工内容筛选依然重要

19:36 #人工智能时代下的版权与知识产权

28:23 灵感来源：约翰·梅尔、泽德、布莱恩·切斯基、大卫·布莱恩

35:06 为何 #NFT 依然重要 #ai

https://x.com/a16zcrypto/status/2033918773829288000?s=20

中文 English

0:00 你得不到任何数据，任何创作者都没有CRM。

0:02 你不知道谁是你Spotify听众中的前1%。

0:05 你不知道谁是你YouTube视频的头部观看者。

0:07 你也无法与这些人直接沟通。

0:09 创作者平台，你可能每月付5美元

0:12 来获取他们的独家内容。

0:13 但用Bond，你实际上只需

0:16 一次性支付或质押5美元。

0:18 你可以随时提现，拿回你的5美元。

0:22 但只要你质押着，他们就能用你的5美元赚利息。

0:25 Bond是粉丝和创作者之间的一种中间状态，

0:29 两者直接连接，且无成本。

0:32 我们认为这种关系必须百分之千上万地上链，

0:34 因为如果像TikTok这样的平台倒了，你无法带走你的观众。

0:37 （空）

0:38 Justin，Michael，非常感谢你们来参加节目。

0:46 感谢邀请。

0:47 人们对于你们所解决的问题最大的误解是什么？

0:50 我觉得我们俩都有答案，你先说吧。

0:52 你让我先说？

0:54 你先说。

0:55 我的观点是，人们认为所有创意都应该被重视，创作者都应该得到报酬，

1:00 这点我绝对认同。

1:02 但这些创作者变现的前提

1:04 其实是必须先知道你的观众是谁。

1:08 Web2最大的问题是你没得任何数据。

1:11 没有任何创作者的CRM。

1:13 你不知道谁是你Spotify听众的前1%。

1:15 你不知道谁是你YouTube视频的主要观看者。

1:18 你无法直接和这些人沟通。

1:20 所以我的观点是，在考虑创作者变现之前，

1:23 先知道谁真正关心你作为创作者

1:25 是区块链带来的最大解锁之一。

1:29 而我认为，正如你所知，已经有很多创作者加密产品允许创作者在链上

1:33 通过各种方式赚钱。

1:35 它们通常都是通过交易量来运作，

1:37 比如说是一种模因币或内容币的交易，

1:41 或者NFT二级版税，都是这个模式。

1:42 创作者因交易量增加赚更多钱。

1:47 但我们认为，创作者应该随着他们观众的增长而赚更多钱，对吧？

1:50 你可以有一千个活跃交易员不断交易你的东西，

1:53 赚取可观的交易费用。

1:56 但这和你作为创作者创作的内容没有任何关联，

1:59 也和你的影响力或观众规模毫无关系。

2:02 交易更像是雇佣兵式的行为，

2:05 你是为了赚钱而做交易，

2:07 而我们谈的是一种完全不同的模式，你想培养忠实粉丝群。

2:10 那些想和你保持长期关系的人。

2:13 这两者似乎是相互矛盾的。

2:17 绝对是。

2:18 是的。

2:18 我们认为这种关系必须百分之千上万地上链，

2:21 因为如果像抖音这样的平台倒了，

2:24 你无法带走你的观众。

2:24 那为什么要上链？

2:26 为什么加密货币是解决这个问题的必需？

2:29 哦，你想让我先说吗？

2:31 好，我给两个答案。

2:33 第一，把我们关系中的经济关系上链更好，因为它开放透明，

2:37 一切都清楚可见。

2:40 尤其通常是通过钱包地址连接，

2:43 创作者有钱包地址，用户也有钱包地址，

2:45 理论上能直接沟通。

2:47 这只是基本前提。

2:49 更有趣的是我们的协议工作方式，必须用区块链。

2:54 理论上可以用中心化方式做，

2:58 但需要大量中介和成千上万行代码，

3:02 而我们的只有500行，

3:03 简单明了。

3:06 Touchy BT说我们几乎不可能做这个。

3:08 是啊。

3:09 我们的工具链，

3:10 建个MVP至少46个月，

3:12 而我们只用了两个月。

3:15 这说明了加密技术的互操作性和组合性，

3:18 能让你基于别人搭建的模块迅速推出产品。

3:22 百分百。

3:23 创作者们最大的问题是跨多个社交平台扩展时，

3:26 没有统一数据库

3:28 能告诉你谁在关心你发布的作品。

3:31 不仅是作为创作者，甚至是社交关系图的问题。

3:34 比如现在Instagram，我的一个童年好友生了双胞胎，

3:39 我都不知道，没出现在我的动态。

3:41 所以现在社交媒体算法之外，几乎不存在真正的关系。

3:44 我和其他项目正在探索这些替代方案。

3:48 我最近有了孩子，但没发过照片，

3:53 感觉像在一个怪异的中间地带，

3:55 很多人都不知道。

3:56 甚至没拍照片。

3:57 挺隐秘的。

3:58 感觉好像没发生过。

4:01 一棵树倒在森林里，

4:01 会有声音吗？

4:02 对。

4:03 哈哈，好。

4:04 明白。

4:04 很有道理。

4:05 说到用加密技术快速启动项目，

4:10 我觉得类似情况也出现在新银行和金融科技，

4:11 很多创业公司意识到用稳定币能立刻全球化，

4:14 而不用花大量精力适配各种本地市场和本地货币。

4:17 它们只需采用加密货币基础设施马上上线。

4:21 你也看到这里类似的好处。

4:23 可能也算是金融科技产品。

4:25 对，完全是。

4:26 这对创作者经济来说也是如此。

4:29 一旦有了稳定币，

4:31 你便能享受诸多便利，

4:33 比如保险库，

4:34 分成，

4:35 即时结算付款，

4:36 这些都是我们喜爱的魔法。

4:39 问题是怎么获得稳定币，

4:41 入门门槛还是很高，尤其是想吸引大众用户。

4:45 必须改进。

4:45 问题在哪里，怎么解决？

4:47 简单来说，

4:47 没人支持信用卡充值。

4:49 没错，这是简单版本。

4:50 大家习惯了Apple Pay和信用卡的便利，

4:55 你用信用卡转成稳定币后，会产生各种退单和欺诈问题，

4:59 很多。

5:00 所以我们最初提供了借记卡支持。

5:03 但有趣的是我自己都没把借记卡加到Apple Pay，

5:06 找不到它，

5:07 快过期了。

5:08 我问朋友们有多少人用借记卡，

5:10 大多数回答基本没人用，没人把借记卡放在Apple Pay上。

5:15 我觉得非投机性加密产品面向主流的最大门槛就是充值入口。

5:19 过去11年，

5:19 这是我见过监管环境和公司第一次准备好跨越这一步。

5:22 我听说年轻一代，特别是美国人，比千禧一代更喜欢用借记卡。

5:27 有趣。

5:28 我也问千禧一代朋友了。

5:31 我是千禧一代。

5:31 这对我没意义，我用信用卡，

5:33 我朋友不用借记卡。

5:34 嗯。

5:35 嗯，我其实是属于Z世代。

5:36 是的。

5:37 Justin，这对你来说是个非常私人问题，

5:40 因为你是艺术家。

5:42 你做音乐。

5:43 谈谈你的经历吧。

5:46 这是个漫长且精彩的故事，我大学学金融，

5:50 然后退学，成了早期美国舞曲的DJ，

5:54 大概2010年或2011年。

5:55 2014年我在一场演出中遇到Winklevoss兄弟，

5:59 他们当时正在打造交易所Gemini，

6:01 就是我认识比特币的契机。

6:03 他们还组了乐队。

6:04 是的，组乐队。

6:04 很不错。

6:05 我们在对金融和音乐的热情上产生共鸣。

6:09 但我真正开始参与生态，是从2017年以太坊上线开始，

6:12 我发现有许多应用对刚起步的音乐人很有用。

6:15 从那时起，我一直关注这个领域做各种尝试。

6:17 最大门槛一直是充值入口。

6:19 作为独立艺术家的经验吸引我加入区块链。

6:24 比如说Chance the Rapper和Russ，他们非常擅长讲述

6:28 作为独立艺术家的故事及多年没数据的问题。

6:32 你卖票，不知道买票的人是谁，

6:35 Ticketmaster掌握他们的邮件，

6:37 你追踪Instagram粉丝，算法变了，

6:39 怎样联络你的粉丝？

6:41 他们仍然关心音乐，只是被广告分散了注意力，

6:44 因为这就是Web2激励机制。

6:52 对我来说，加密是下一代创作者能保持独立

6:54 和

6:55 拿回大部分收入的方式。

6:58 大多数创作者有经理人、经纪人、律师，需要分成，

7:04 这笔支出很大。

7:06 和公司接受风险投资相比，创作者实际交出的佣金超过40%。

7:12 哇，40%。

7:14 没错。

7:15 我的理论是，如果你能对齐激励，直接连接粉丝，

7:20 他们会提供比你付给团队40%佣金更大的价值。

7:24 这个说法在音乐业很有争议，

7:26 因为有很多人靠这些角色谋生。

7:28 但音乐产业基本还是20年前的模式，版税结算非常糟糕。

7:32 欺诈大量存在。

7:34 就上周有消息说Calvin Harris的经理曾挪用他2200万美元地产资金。

7:38 这些音乐业的黑暗内幕都是真的。

7:41 区块链作为透明开放的基础层

7:43 对我来说，能解决我遇到的所有问题。

7:45 所以我致力于让它成功。

7:49 我认为2025年是监管环境成熟的第一年。

7:52 大家或许知道Patreon这种服务，支持创作者；

7:55 或者substack订阅内容创作者，他们会拿到部分收入。

7:58 很大一部分。

7:59 你们的做法和这些有什么区别？

8:03 比如Patreon、substack，或Instagram之类的创作者平台，

8:07 你可能每月付5美元，

8:08 持续付费获取独家内容。

8:11 而Bond只需一次质押5美元，

8:15 前提是，

8:16 质押后你可访问独家内容，

8:18 可能是一句合唱、独家歌，

8:19 博客之类的，

8:22 但你随时能提现5美元。

8:26 只要你质押，创作者就能赚利息。

8:28 他们靠利息赚钱。

8:29 我不是直接付你5美元，而是质押5美元。

8:32 当我质押着，你赚利息。

8:35 这就创造了新局面，不是说“我有1000个订阅者”，

8:38 而是“我有1000美元质押在我身上”，

8:40 这是全新的社交指标，创作者会喜欢并使用。

8:44 我们一开始主张价值超越粉丝数，

8:45 因为太多机器人，

8:46 Web2根本无法精准评估社交图谱。

8:49 正如Michael说，哪个粉丝质押5美元好，哪个可能质押5000或1万美元。

8:53 创作者可辨别谁是真正关心自己，

8:56 愿意为他们做更多。

8:57 Bond介于粉丝关注和订阅之间，

9:01 要求粉丝每月付5美元订阅是很高要求，

9:05 你还得持续产出新内容，

9:08 他们可能取消，你还要请求订阅，

9:10 让人感觉不真诚。

9:13 关注其实毫无价值，算法决定你看什么、怎么互动。

9:16 Bond是两者折中， fan和创作者直接联系，成本为零。

9:18 其美妙之处在于DeFi部分，

9:23 不把钱放账上，

9:24 而是分散质押给多个喜爱的创作者以获得访问权限，

9:27 这是Instagram或抖音环境做不到的。

9:29 称为零成本，因为你质押某金额，比如20美元支持音乐人，

9:33 获得幕后的内容访问，

9:36 想取回钱时随时提取。

9:38 没错，就是这样。

9:39 你基本上是在用金融科技里广为人知的商业模型。

9:44 星巴克移动应用其实是个银行，

9:47 用户存零钱，星巴克从利息中赚大钱。

9:51 你把这个“漏洞”转变为功能，

9:54 某种形式的“质押”或“绑定”，让人能透明选择支持艺术家。

9:59 没错，透明又开放。

10:00 创作者现在面临的问题是，

10:02 过去有Facebook，现今有诸多平台，

10:04 我该回谁的消息？

10:06 对关注音乐的人回复？

10:08 Web2没法筛选关心度。

10:10 有质押资金人在我身边，节目结束时更可能回复他们，

10:14 而不是那些Instagram或抖音上的无意义广告骚扰。

10:16 Bond不仅是新型网络关系机制，

10:19 也可称首个创作者CRM。

10:20 因为其他平台你根本拿不到数据。

10:22 Salesforce服务艺术家。

10:24 你可以这么理解，

10:25 既像Patreon又不像，

10:27 既像Salesforce又不像。

10:28 最大挑战是这行为用户和创作者都不习惯，

10:30 用户不习惯随时能取回质押的钱。

10:33 买东西退货要等一周，

10:34 购票退票得发售票平台花很多力气收回，

10:37 稳定币交易即时、免许可、全年无休，

10:41 我最喜欢的接触加密的故事是2017年，

10:45 周末用以太坊给爸爸展示几分钟内能转账到全球，

10:47 这种体验。

10:49 现在有稳定币和良好监管，我们有新工具创造全新创作者生态。

10:52 支持他们最大粉丝。

10:54 而且这机制不限于创作者，

10:56 比如有人医疗债务，可以直接质押支持，别人用利息还债。

11:01 这是全新模式，从创作者起步，

11:03 希望推广利息型线上连接到更多场景。

11:07 为什么是现在？

11:08 过去加密市场周期，人们期待帮创作者付费，

11:13 对NFT版税等很感兴趣，

11:15 结果没达到预期。

11:18 如今发生了什么变化，为什么世界准备好迎接新产品？

11:21 原因有几条。

11:23 技术方面，技术已经准备好，

11:27 比如Layer 2交易费低至千分之一美分。

11:31 有稳定币，

11:33 SDK和钱包基础设施做到无感知提供钱包，

11:36 用户只用邮箱注册，

11:38 且我们可以资助交易费（Gas费）。

11:40 比如在Bond网站用时，用户不会感觉有以太坊交易，

11:43 一切后台完成。

11:45 很多公司努力打造如此无缝体验的基础设施。

11:48 所以描述我们产品时，甚至不用提加密。

11:51 这是非必须。

11:54 若要主流用户加入，体验必须无缝。

11:57 另一方面，Patreon、Substack等订阅平台已存在，

12:01 Instagram和Twitter开始融入订阅，

12:04 但大家已经产生订阅疲劳。

12:08 我喜欢支持的一百多位创作者，我不会一个月给他们每人5美元，

12:12 很多大V有几十万粉丝，实际付费却仅千人，

12:15 用户与付费支持者差距极大。

12:18 什么机制更好，既便宜、方便，且心理负担小？

12:22 大家逐渐接受订阅这理念，我们认为这是更好方式。

12:26 你提到订阅，

12:27 我想反驳一下。

12:29 现在AI让内容生成极易，有人说内容成本跌至零。

12:33 那创作者经济怎么办？

12:35 这带来我最具争议的观点。

12:38 好。

12:39 讲个故事再说答案。

12:42 看现场John Mayer弹吉他是我当DJ以来的最佳体验之一。

12:45 我能弹吉他，但不怎么样。

12:47 看他弹是无与伦比的体验，我有幸和他一起呆过几次。

12:52 每次都给我巨大价值，

12:54 他除了票钱外几乎没其他报酬，

12:55 但他给予的价值远超票价，

12:57 甚至周边商品。

12:58 我在Woodstock旧址Beth Elle Woods看过他演出，

13:01 他和Grateful Dead合作，

13:02 精彩极了。

13:04 哇。

13:04 他是个极棒的表演者。

13:06 几周前和他谈Bond，他很快就理解了。

13:09 对AI内容，我争议性的观点是，人们会欣赏人类对内容的策划。

13:14 因为纯AI内容和提示生成的东西看起来很像，但最终分别会显现，

13:18 而创造力中最大变量不是创造行为本身，而是策划。

13:23 一直如此。

13:24 我创作歌曲时，会策划各种声音，

13:27 打造最终作品。

13:29 那是我的技术。

13:31 听众觉得最有人味的是这里。

13:33 所以我认为人们会肯定人类的输入。

13:37 只是执行创意的阻力已经降到零，

13:41 ，

13:41 带来我观点：知识产权与创意相关将彻底消失。

13:44 我不认为任何法律或判例会有效执行。

13:46 看版权历史不算长，尤其音乐相关。

13:49 主录音权直到70年代才出现，

13:52 之前没人拥有录音，除了唱片公司。

13:54 无版权法律，

13:56 唱片公司拥有100%权利。

13:58 直到70年代，音乐人才能从录音中获得部分收入。

14:02 唱片公司控制实体发行。

14:06 版权这个概念逐渐被AI带来的海量高质量内容所淘汰。

14:07 我认为版权严重阻碍这领域的创新。

14:10 反对者问，

14:11 创意最初提出者如何获得报酬？

14:13 我说，

14:15 过去人力资源是无限的。

14:17 200年前有人想法，根本没法记录，

14:22 如果他们影响了创造了首个版权概念的人，这些都没得补偿。

14:26 巴赫是最早享有某种音乐版权的作曲家。

14:29 他的价值通过作品来源和声誉流传。

14:32 我观点是需要为创意创新创造新价值体系。

14:36 版权在充斥AI内容的世界里不再适用。

14:41 这对依赖IP生存的许多创作者来说或许很可怕。

14:44 问题是，没了版权他们靠什么生活？

14:46 他们拥有的，是与欣赏他们作品人的人类关系。

14:49 必须有全新价值体系，

14:51 否则我认为创作将灭亡。

14:54 而旧势力拼命保护版权和大品牌IP，

14:57 这很自负，

14:59 认为自己能拥有最初的创意。

15:02 生物科技例外，研究和专利阻力大，没专利没人创新。

15:06 创意领域AI带来零阻力，

15:09 版权成了创新路上的巨大障碍。

15:13 这让我想起托马斯·杰斐逊关于设计专利制度时说，

15:17 “我把火点到你灯上，你可以用我的火不会少我的火。”

15:21 他用此比喻思想传播，

15:25 别人可以利用你的思想而不损害你。

15:27 看来我们需要更新长期持有的制度。

15:32 这让我想起狄更斯在美国巡演，因版权被侵害而感到震惊。

15:36 他觉得美国人简直野蛮。

15:39 也许这是未来。

15:41 谁知道呢？

15:42 五年内我们会知道。

15:44 我的另一个争议观点是，我在行业里多年，

15:50 见过许多情况。

15:51 我曾在A16Z和C6（注：机构简称）工作，

15:57 现在作为开发者开始构建产品，

16:00 我认为并非所有加密产品都必须是去中心化协议带代币，

16:06 而“去中心化”一词太大，一切都混为一谈。

16:09 但我们看到技术如此优秀，你可以构建出优秀应用和商业模型，

16:14 不必去中心化，

16:16 这也没问题。

16:18 利用加密技术打造新产品和消费体验，

16:21 我们看到这种趋势。

16:24 我不知是否可说名字，但现在有不少成功的加密公司，

16:28 不必是去中心化协议，

16:30 却巧妙利用技术创造全新品类。

16:34 这令人兴奋。

16:38 我希望，

16:39 想造新产品的开发者能这样想，

16:41 而非只想“我要造加密产品。”

16:43 他们应该想“我要造个了不起的东西”，加密只是工具，是技术栈一层。

16:47 我们见证了稳定币的趋势，

16:51 终会变成谈论美元而非稳定币，

16:54 人们会直接谈价值，

16:54 可靠体现价值的工具，

16:56 我想到最近的思考是加密和AI的区别，

17:00 感觉像是笑话开场。

17:02 不是，我认真说。

17:03 用户感受到AI，体验里见得着。

17:06 无论是生成艺术还是对话机器人。

17:09 但加密往往完全隐形，

17:12 这很酷。

17:14 前端后端的区别。

17:16 说说Justin和他的音乐事业，

17:18 Michael，你是魔术师，

17:19 魔术如何影响你看待创作者经济？

17:22 很多方面。

17:23 魔术和知识产权历史疯狂，

17:26 魔术无法版权保护。

17:29 你能写下来版权保护手稿，

17:31 但魔术表演不受版权保护。

17:33 魔术史上充满相互抄袭、重组点子。

17:37 我导师Aussie Wind极其厉害，

17:39 你没看过？

17:40 他超棒，

17:41 曾问过我，买套20美元的牌组，所有人能玩同样魔术，

17:44 好魔术师和差魔术师区别是什么？

17:46 答案是人。

17:49 他表演魔术，那体验要好千倍。

17:52 所以魔术世界的现状也就是Justin所说的。

17:55 所有艺术终将失去知识产权防护，

17:58 靠人性和独特性打动人。

18:01 Arthur C. Clarke有句名言，

18:03 任何足够先进的技术

18:04 都难以与魔术区分。

18:05 真是经典。

18:06 魔术师总领先大众两三步。

18:09 我不能透露原因，

18:10 魔术里面的技术早10年前高中我就玩过，

18:14 现在成了大家口袋里的消费品。

18:16 真的？

18:16 不能用来做魔术了。

18:17 完全是。

18:18 能举例吗？

18:19 听起来疯狂。

18:20 新款Meta眼镜。

18:22 对。

18:22 你手上有。

18:22 用手画字打字。

18:23 魔术师早玩这一概念，

18:25 不是这一技术本体，

18:26 概念十年前就有。

18:28 很有趣。

18:30 你们启发来源？

18:32 谁激励你们？

18:33 我提过John Mayer，

18:36 还有朋友Zed，技术前沿DJ，创大热单。

18:38 技术方面，我推Brian Chesky，

18:40 真好的人，

18:42 在重重挑战中把Airbnb做成革命性公司，

18:45 改变了我们对世界运作的看法，

18:48 我希望我们能从加密角度做到。

18:50 回到魔术。

18:51 我推荐三位现役魔术师，必看。

18:54 Aussie Wind,

18:56 Doug McKenzie,

18:57 David Blaine。

18:59 理由各不同。

19:01 Doug是技术最前沿魔术师。

19:04 David Blaine极具感染力，为难自己极限。

19:07 看他表演，你就想我也能。

19:09 他尝试屏住呼吸9分钟，太厉害。

19:12 准备好来个快速问答？

19:13 走吧。

19:14 作为创始人得到的最糟糕建议？

19:15 简单答案，找聪明人就行。

19:17 尤其区块链或相关行业，

19:20 必须用产品，才能有正确文化视角。

19:22 光请工程师、期望教他们加密文化根本行不通。

19:24 这是最糟建议。

19:26 我本来要说的。

19:27 那个偷了我的。

19:27 不用说名字。

19:29 提升效率的诀窍？

19:31 语音笔记。

19:32 录语音，AI做摘要。

19:33 我用Zoom会议做笔记。

19:36 不常看，但想法记下来，

19:38 不是原稿，而是AI提炼后存在笔记里。

19:41 非常有帮助。

19:44 我经常想很多事，能归纳很有价值。

19:47 用语音和AI的结合很好。

19:50 我常用AI配音读博客。

19:52 有个Chrome插件Speechify连我邮件，

19:54 看邮件时自动读。

19:57 另一个插件截取重点，存入笔记工具Obsidian，

20:00 很多人用，日常必备。

20:03 我用苹果笔记。

20:05 不，Obsidian是史上最强笔记工具。

20:06 我试过用，后来还是回苹果笔记了。

20:08 习惯决定一切。

20:09 我一直让人推荐书，也欢迎推荐歌或其他艺术品。

20:11 近读的最值得停下来记笔记的是《君主论》。

20:14 还有一本

20:15 关于技术和加密，理解比特币、

20:18 稳定币、美元、联储、印钞那些东西，

20:21 是Lyn Alden的《Broken Money》。

20:23 不错书。

20:24 一本经济学一本政治学。

20:27 Machiavellians我也读了，

20:28 是A16Z内部喜爱书，Mark Andreessen常提。

20:29 我也从他那听说的。

20:30 政治洞察很多。

20:32 强烈推荐。

20:33 我生日时弟弟送的《被讨厌的勇气》。

20:35 非常棒，

20:37 我网络上被众人讨厌那段时间读它，

20:39 改变了很多看法。

20:41 它在当下非常适合想获得最大关注度的人。

20:44 买藏着，心情不好时读。

20:46 否则没太大作用。

20:47 如果心情好，飞得高，

20:49 不太能激起共鸣。

20:50 对。

20:51 音乐方面，听专辑是失传艺术，

20:53 长时间专注完整讲述艺术家故事，

20:55 我强烈推荐听专辑。

20:58 最后推荐最新Rufus Du Sol专辑，

21:00 他们的最好专辑之一。

21:02 之前也很棒，

21:04 我真的很喜欢。

21:06 几首音效突破。

21:07 必听两遍。

21:08 精彩。

21:09 顺便说一下，我们播客用的是Justin你的歌，

21:12 谢谢你的支持。

21:14 曲名叫“Shine That You Created”，

21:16 未公开曲，现在被妥善保管。

21:18 听A16Z Crypto的媒体都能听到。

21:21 喜欢。

21:22 感谢。

21:23 一言以蔽之，

21:24 最后的问题，最小的坚持点是什么？

21:25 我来一个。

21:27 室内家具禁止放户外衣服。

21:28 非常棒。

21:29 你和老婆肯定合得来。

21:31 我也觉得。

21:32 科技上我还坚持，

21:34 NFT尤其是ERC721或1155，

21:37 是表示网络数字资产最酷技术创新。

21:40 它们会无处不在。

21:41 不管媒体说什么，头条怎样，

21:43 它们没死。

21:45 误解是什么？

21:47 都是投机层面猜测。

21:50 有人以为它像互联网一样是昙花一现，

21:53 没人用，

21:54 但互联网成为了信息高速公路。

21:57 NFT也会照此发展，

21:58 数字所有权很重要。

22:00 Instagram认证徽章一度意义重大，

22:02 代表信号和数字身份，

22:05 NFT依然有这样的作用。

22:07 只是遭一些项目滥用流行叙事，

22:09 赚钱快捷。

22:10 但数字所有权才是重点，

22:13 尤其结合刚才AI让阻力归零讨论，

22:17 谁是原创、沿革、公开账本，

22:20 必然趋势，

22:22 身份或艺术层面，

22:23 随处可见。

22:24 只是时间问题。

22:26 Eddie Lazar在A16Z说过，

22:28 我很喜欢。

22:29 他是CTO，很棒。

22:31 忘了主题是什么，

22:32 大概是NFT和所有权，

22:34 他说真所有权副作用是转手方便，

22:38 容易转让你会看到很多人转来转去，

22:41 买卖其实是副作用，

22:43 核心是拥有权。

22:44 我喜欢这种视角，

22:45 真所有权，

22:46 我们都支持。

22:47 Michael，Justin，非常感谢你们来聊。

22:49 非常感谢。

22:51 很开心。

22:52 谢谢。

22:53 Q shine。

22:54 是的。

23:08 [MUSIC PLAYING]

0:00 You don't get any data, there's no CRM for any creative.

0:02 You don't know who the top 1% of your Spotify listeners are.

0:05 You don't know who the top watchers of your YouTube videos are.

0:07 And you can't directly communicate with those people.

0:09 Creator platforms, you might pay somebody like $5 a month

0:12 to get access to their exclusive content.

0:13 But with Bond, what you're doing is you're actually only paying

0:16 or bonding $5 one time.

0:18 You can withdraw and get your $5 back at any moment in time.

0:22 But while you're bonded to them, they earn interest on your $5.

0:25 Bond is some middle ground where the fan and the creator

0:29 have that direct connection and it costs $0.

0:32 We think that relationship should 1,000% be on chain

0:34 because you can't take your audience with you if a platform like TikTok goes

0:37 down.

0:38 Justin, Michael, thank you guys both so much for coming on the show.

0:46 Thanks for having us.

0:47 What is the biggest misconception that people have

0:50 about the problem that you're solving?

0:52 I think we both have an answer, so you can go first.

0:54 You want me to go first?

0:55 You can go first.

0:56 My spicy take is that people assume all creativity

1:00 should be valued and that creators should be paid,

1:02 which I definitely believe to be true.

1:04 But the prerequisite to any of these themes of creator monetization

1:08 is actually knowing who your audience is.

1:11 Biggest problem in web 2, you don't get any data.

1:13 There's no CRM for any creative.

1:15 You don't know who the top 1% of your Spotify listeners are.

1:18 You don't know who the top watchers of your YouTube videos are.

1:20 And you can't directly communicate with those people.

1:23 And so I guess my take is before you start thinking about creator monetization,

1:28 just knowing who cares about you as a creator

1:30 is one of the biggest unlocks that blockchain provides.

1:33 And what I would say is there have been numerous,

1:37 as you know, creator crypto products that let creators earn on chain

1:41 on the internet in various ways.

1:42 And the way that usually works is through some form of like trading volume.

1:47 So whether that's, you know, a meme coin or a content coin trading

1:50 or an NFT secondary royalty, it's the same idea.

1:53 And what that means is that creators earn more money as trading volume grows.

1:58 But what we believe is that creators should earn more money as their audience

2:01 grows, right?

2:02 You could have a thousand very active traders trading your stuff

2:05 and make some good trading fees off of that.

2:07 But that has no tie at all to your content that you're creating as a creator

2:10 or how big you are getting in the world and how many people are seeing your

2:13 stuff.

2:13 Yeah, because trading is more of like a mercenary behavior.

2:16 You know, you're trying to make money off of something

2:18 versus this complete other type of thing where you want to develop

2:21 like a loyal fan base and a loyal following.

2:24 People who want to have this like long-term relationship with you.

2:26 Those two things would seem to be, you know, opposed.

2:30 A hundred percent.

2:30 Yes.

2:31 And we think that relationship should 1000% be on chain

2:34 because you can't take your audience with you if a platform like TikTok goes

2:37 down.

2:38 So why on chain?

2:39 Why is crypto necessary to solve this problem?

2:42 Oh man, do you want to take that to start?

2:45 Sure. I think I'll give two answers to that.

2:47 Yeah. I think the first is, you know, putting whatever this relationship is,

2:51 economic relationship in our case on chain is just that better because it's

2:55 open,

2:56 it's transparent, everything can be seen.

2:58 And especially with the fact that like typically it's through wallet addresses

3:02 so the creator might have a wallet address and the user will have a wallet

3:05 address.

3:06 Now in theory, they have a direct way to communicate with each other.

3:08 Okay. So that's like sort of like the table stakes reason.

3:11 But I think the more interesting reason is the way that our protocol works,

3:15 you need a blockchain to do it, right?

3:17 And so we could in theory maybe build it on centralized rails,

3:21 but that would require many intermediaries and lots and lots and lots and

3:26 thousands and thousands

3:26 of lines of code, whereas ours is 500 lines of code and simple.

3:31 Touchy BT said it's almost impossible for us to build what we've built.

3:33 Yeah. And obviously our rails.

3:35 I just do them.

3:36 It takes six to nine months to create an MVP.

3:39 Whereas we were able to do it in like two, you know, so.

3:41 So this speaks to the ability in crypto to have interoperability,

3:45 composability to sort of build off of the Lego blocks that other people have

3:48 already created

3:49 and instantly just sort of like be able to ship a product.

3:51 100%.

3:52 Which is the biggest problem that creatives have had

3:54 as they've like expanded across all these different social platforms is there's

3:57 no unified

3:58 database of who cares about the creativity that you've put out in the world.

4:01 But that's not even just as a creator, but even a social graph, right?

4:04 Where like nowadays on Instagram, you know, my friend, one of my best childhood

4:08 friends had twins.

4:09 I didn't even know because it didn't show up in my feed, right?

4:12 And so there's no real relationship that exists

4:15 beyond the algorithm in social media these days.

4:17 And, you know, the stuff that we're building and many other projects

4:20 are beginning to sort of explore what the alternatives look like.

4:23 I recently had a kid and I've not posted about it.

4:25 And I mean, this weird limbo area where I feel like a lot of people don't know

4:29 that I.

4:29 I didn't even get a photo.

4:30 You didn't even get a photo.

4:31 You know, it's kind of covert, you know?

4:33 It feels like it hasn't really happened.

4:36 We have a tree falls in the forest.

4:38 Does it make a sense?

4:39 Exactly.

4:39 Yeah, I like that.

4:40 That's good.

4:41 I get that.

4:42 That totally makes sense.

4:43 To your point about being able to sort of like bootstrap this thing on crypto

4:47 rails,

4:47 I think we're seeing something analogous in, you know, the neo-bank kind of f

4:51 intech area

4:53 where a lot of these startups are realizing that they can instantly go global

4:57 if they use stablecoins rather than having to like develop all these local

5:01 integrations

5:02 with different places and, you know, conform to various local markets.

5:06 They're able to sort of get up and running just by adopting crypto rails.

5:11 And so you're kind of seeing a similar benefit.

5:13 It seems like not in like the fintech area.

5:15 I mean, I guess it is a fintech product.

5:16 And what I'd say to the creator economy.

5:18 100% and what I'd say to is once you get the stablecoin,

5:22 you get access to like all these great things, right?

5:24 You get the vault.

5:25 You get the splits.

5:26 You get the payments, instant settlement, all the magic that we love.

5:28 The problem though is still actually getting the stablecoins, right?

5:31 So the on ramp is still a challenge, especially if we're looking to onboard the

5:34 mainstream.

5:35 That's going to have to improve.

5:36 What's the issue there and how do we overcome it?

5:38 The simple.

5:39 No one supports credit cards.

5:40 Well, yeah, that's the simple version.

5:41 I think people are so used to the convenience of Apple Pay and credit cards.

5:46 And, you know, you have all these different chargeback fraudulent issues that

5:51 arise when

5:51 you convert a credit card fee to a stablecoin.

5:54 And so we initially enabled debit cards for a lot of things.

5:57 And what's funny is I myself didn't even have my debit card and my Apple Pay.

6:01 And I couldn't even find it.

6:02 And it was expiring.

6:03 I started asking friends, I'm like,

6:04 how many of you guys actually use debit cards?

6:06 And the response mostly came back as like none, like zero out of 10 data points

6:12 to people

6:12 actually keep their debit cards on Apple Pay.

6:14 And so I do think the biggest barrier to entry for mainstream engagement in non

6:18 -speculative

6:19 crypto products is just that on ramp.

6:21 And I think that in the 11 years I've been doing crypto things, this is the

6:25 first time

6:26 the regulatory environment and the companies are sort of ready to take that to

6:28 the next level.

6:29 I've read about a trend of like younger generations, as particularly in the US,

6:34 liking debit cards and actually using them more than like millennials and so...

6:39 Oh, interesting.

6:40 I'm asking my millennial friends the question.

6:42 So, you know...

6:42 Yeah, I'm a millennial.

6:43 So this makes no sense to me.

6:44 I use credit cards.

6:46 My friends are not debit cards.

6:47 Okay.

6:48 Yeah, I mean, you know...

6:49 Also, I'm trying to fish around the points.

6:50 I think I'm technically Gen Z.

6:52 All right, I made that right.

6:52 Yeah, okay.

6:53 I don't even know.

6:54 Justin, this is a problem that is deeply personal to you,

6:58 because you are an artist.

7:00 You make music.

7:01 Tell me about your journey.

7:03 It's such a long and fantastic story, but I studied finance in college,

7:07 dropped out and became a DJ in the early days of dance music being a thing in

7:11 America.

7:11 So this is 2010, 2011.

7:13 And I actually met the Winklevoss twins while I was playing one of my shows in

7:17 2014,

7:18 while they were building their exchange called Gemini.

7:20 And that's how I discovered Bitcoin.

7:21 They've got a band, too.

7:22 Oh, yes, they do.

7:23 And they're quite good.

7:24 They've always been into music.

7:25 And so we sort of connected on the passionate about finance level, on the music

7:30 level.

7:30 And that's how I discovered Bitcoin.

7:32 But it didn't really start getting engaged in the ecosystem until, like,

7:35 Ethereum 2017, when I started realizing, "Oh, wow, there are all these

7:39 applications

7:39 that I wish I could have had as a musician when I was starting my career."

7:43 And I've kind of been focused on that since 2017 in lots of different realms

7:47 and lots of different experiments.

7:48 The biggest barrier to entry has been that on-ramp.

7:49 For me, though, my attraction to blockchain technology in general is my

7:56 experience as an

7:56 independent artist.

7:57 And I'm sure you've heard of a couple of these, but to give you an example,

8:00 there's Chance the Rapper, and there's another rapper named Russ who's really,

8:05 really amazing at telling his story about being an independent artist and how

8:09 challenging that is,

8:10 how it's been over the past 10 years, and how you just get no data.

8:13 And you don't know anything about, you sell tickets, you don't know who those

8:17 people are.

8:17 You don't get their emails, ticker master controls your emails.

8:20 You grow up following on Instagram, they change the algorithm.

8:23 How do you reach that fan base?

8:25 Those fans definitely still care about that music.

8:28 They're just seeing a bunch of slop that re-hypoticates their attention to more

8:33 advertising

8:33 revenue, because that's sort of what Web2 is incentivized around.

8:36 And so for me, crypto has been a force that I feel the next generation of creat

8:44 ives

8:44 across the board, not just musicians, can use to really maintain that

8:48 independence

8:49 and maintain their biggest share of the pie when it comes to their revenue.

8:52 As you know, most creators have managers, agents, lawyers, all of whom take

8:56 fees along the way.

8:57 And if you were to compare that to the structure of a company and a VC

9:01 investing in that company,

9:02 a lot of creatives actually end up giving over 40% of their income just in

9:07 commissions.

9:08 Wow, 40%.

9:09 Exactly.

9:10 And so the theory that I've always played with is in my head in crypto, like

9:13 the core theory is,

9:15 if you can align incentives and connect directly with a fan base,

9:19 they'd provide more value than the 40% commission you're paying your team.

9:23 And it's a relatively controversial taking the music business because, you know

9:26 ,

9:26 there are lots of people that don't make music that have jobs based on these

9:30 types of roles.

9:31 And yet, the industry still lives in a world from like 20 years ago where

9:35 royalty accounting is

9:36 absolutely garbage.

9:37 There's tons of fraud.

9:38 I mean, the story just came out the other week that Calvin Harris is business

9:41 manager.

9:42 I ended up firing a while ago in Bezelton, out of like 22 million in a real

9:46 estate deal.

9:46 You know, and so these sort of like conventional slimy takes that you hear

9:50 about the music industry

9:51 are all true.

9:52 And blockchain as a transparent layer, as an open layer just was so obvious to

9:57 me back then,

9:58 could help solve all the problems that I was experiencing.

10:01 And so I've sort of dedicated my life to, you know, making it work.

10:04 And I think, you know, 2025 is the first year we have the regulatory

10:07 environment to push it.

10:08 I think people might be familiar with a service like Patreon where you can

10:12 support creators or

10:14 sub stack. You subscribe to various content creators and they get a portion of

10:17 the revenue,

10:18 a large portion.

10:19 What separates what you're doing from those existing options?

10:23 Like on Patreon or sub stack or even Instagram or any of these other creator

10:26 platforms,

10:27 you might pay somebody like $5 a month, right?

10:29 So every month you're paying the $5 to get access to their exclusive content.

10:33 But with Bond, what you're doing is you're actually only paying or bonding $5

10:38 one time

10:39 with the catch that once you bond your money, you get access to their exclusive

10:44 content,

10:44 whatever that might be.

10:45 Maybe, you know, it's a chorus, an exclusive, you know, song, a blog, etc.

10:50 But the catch is that you can withdraw and get your $5 back at any moment in

10:54 time.

10:55 But while you're bonded to them, they earn interest on your $5.

10:59 And so that's how they earn money.

11:01 And so instead of me paying you $5 directly, I am bonding $5 to you one time.

11:06 And as long as I'm bonded to you, you're earning interest.

11:09 And what this creates is this really cool new dynamic where now, instead of

11:12 being able to say,

11:13 you know, I have a thousand subscribers, you can say I have $1,000 bonded to me

11:18 , right?

11:19 Which is a very new social metric type of signal that I think creators are

11:22 going to

11:23 really like and use.

11:24 We started with your worth more than your follower count because there's so

11:27 many bots.

11:28 There's no way to really value your social graph as it applies in Web2.

11:32 And as Michael said, you know, if you get a thousand fans to stake or to bond $

11:37 5, that's cool.

11:38 You also have fans that are bigger that might want to get recognized by you as

11:42 a creator.

11:42 And they might be willing to stake a little bit more money and bond $5,000, $10

11:46 ,000.

11:46 And now all of a sudden you as the creator can tell, okay, who really cares

11:52 about me?

11:52 Maybe I'll do a lot more for you.

11:54 And what bond is, is it's somewhere between a follower and a subscription where

11:58 , as a creator,

11:58 it's a lot to ask your fans to pay $5 a month for a subscription.

12:02 And, you know, you're then obligated to give them new content.

12:06 They might stop the subscription and you're like asking them for something that

12:09 feels like

12:10 sort of disingenuous when you ask someone to subscribe.

12:13 A follow is, you know, really worthless in the sense that, you know,

12:17 the algorithm then decides what you see and how you interact.

12:20 Bond is some middle ground where both the user, the fan, and the creator

12:24 have that direct connection and it costs $0.

12:27 The beauty of the mechanic is in the DeFi component where now, instead of

12:33 keeping your money

12:33 in a checking account, you might spread that money between a lot of creators

12:36 that you like

12:37 just to get access to them.

12:38 Something that you just couldn't do in an Instagram or a TikTok environment.

12:42 And you say cost $0 because you can bond some amount of money.

12:46 Like say I bond $20 to you as a musician. I like your music.

12:49 I want to get access to all the behind the scenes sort of material.

12:52 And then I can pull my money out pretty much whenever and have that back.

12:56 Exactly.

12:56 Yeah, exactly.

12:57 You're basically taking like a business model that it's well understood in

13:00 Fintech and finance.

13:02 There's this like shadow economy of, you know, the Starbucks mobile app is kind

13:06 of like a bank.

13:07 And everybody's accounts that they just leave their pennies in there.

13:11 You know, on an aggregate scale, Starbucks makes a lot of money off of that in

13:15 interest.

13:15 You're taking this sort of like business model that's pre-existing and is

13:18 almost like a bug

13:19 for user experiences elsewhere and turning it into a feature.

13:22 I'm actually going to choose to stake some of this money or bond it.

13:28 And it's going to be transparent and open that I know that the artist is going

13:31 to get rewarded.

13:32 Yeah, exactly.

13:32 And what I'm, you know, a problem that creators have is now with all the

13:35 different platforms,

13:36 right? It started out with just Facebook.

13:37 Now it's everything, you know, even before that Myspace.

13:39 Who do I even know to respond to, right?

13:42 Like, I owe the people that care about my musical response if they have a

13:46 question,

13:46 if they have a story.

13:47 There's just no way for me to filter how much someone cares in Web2.

13:52 With bond, if somebody has money staked on me, at the end of the night when I

13:56 go to sleep after a show,

13:57 more likely to respond to those people than the random spam that I get with

14:01 random ads on Instagram

14:02 or on TikTok or wherever it might be.

14:04 And so we think about bond, not just as a new mechanic for online relationships

14:10 .

14:10 We also think of it as the first creator CRM because there's literally no data

14:16 you have access to

14:17 when you build an audience on any other platform.

14:19 Salesforce for artists.

14:21 I mean, there's all these analogies, right?

14:22 It's like Patreon, but it's not.

14:24 It's Salesforce and it's not.

14:24 And I think that's our biggest challenge in starting this new idea is this is a

14:28 behavior

14:28 that users aren't used to and creatives aren't used to, right?

14:31 A user is not used to being able to get their money back instantaneously at any

14:34 time.

14:35 You know, they wait, let's say you buy something and you return it.

14:37 It's like, let's say you buy a bunch of T-shirts online, you got to wait a week

14:40 before the credit card payment gets reversed or with a ticket you buy it.

14:44 Maybe you don't want to go to the show anymore.

14:46 Now you have to list that on StubHub.

14:47 It's a lot of effort to receive that refund.

14:50 With stablecoins, everything is instantaneous, permissionless, and 24/7.

14:54 My favorite story about getting into crypto was just using Ethereum on the

14:58 weekend and

14:58 showing my dad that it takes a couple minutes to move money anywhere in the

15:01 world.

15:02 That was in like 2017.

15:03 And with stablecoins and with all the new positive regulation,

15:06 we now have new tools to create a completely new environment for creatives to

15:10 interact with

15:11 their biggest supporters.

15:12 We also don't even necessarily think it stops at creators.

15:14 You can imagine somebody who has medical debt that starts to go fund me.

15:17 Instead of now donating to pay off that medical debt, you can just bond to that

15:22 person

15:22 and they can use your interest to pay off that medical debt, right?

15:24 So this is just a completely new mechanic that begins with creators

15:28 because everything good usually begins with creators.

15:31 And we hope to just expand the idea of interest-bearing online connection

15:38 to lots of other spaces on the internet.

15:40 Why now?

15:41 Like, why is the world ready for this now?

15:43 I asked this because, you know, back in previous cycles of the crypto market,

15:48 there were a lot of hopes placed on being able to compensate creators for their

15:52 work.

15:52 There was a lot of interest in NFT royalties and things like that.

15:56 It didn't really pan out to the degree that people had thought.

15:59 What's changed between then and now and why is the world

16:03 you know, ready to receive this kind of new product?

16:07 I think a few reasons.

16:08 First, from a technical side, the tech is kind of ready, right?

16:12 Like, we have layer twos with like sub-penny transaction fees.

16:16 We have stablecoins.

16:17 We have really amazing SDKs and wallet infrastructure where people can come to

16:22 our site

16:22 and we can give them a wallet with them not even knowing that there's a wallet.

16:27 Like, they can just sign up with your email.

16:28 We can also sponsor their transaction.

16:30 So when you're using the bond website, for example, normally and you'll have

16:34 like

16:34 pay Ethereum gas to like do a transaction, you don't even know that there's an

16:37 Ethereum

16:38 transaction going on on the bond platform because it's all hidden behind the

16:41 scenes.

16:41 But that is because there have been many companies that have worked really hard

16:45 to build

16:46 really incredible infrastructure to enable such a seamless experience.

16:50 Because even like when you asked to describe what we're building,

16:53 we didn't even need to mention crypto, right?

16:55 It's not required.

16:56 And so if we're trying to get the mainstream onboarded, it's very important

16:59 that the experience just feels seamless.

17:01 That's from a technical side.

17:04 The other thing I'd say is that Patreon and Substack and these other

17:07 subscription platforms

17:08 have been around.

17:09 But other platforms that are like the Instagrams and the Twitters of the world

17:13 have started to incorporate subscriptions into these profiles.

17:16 So like you can subscribe to a Twitter profile or Instagram profile.

17:19 People just have like subscription fatigue, right?

17:22 I, there was like maybe 100 creators that I would love to support because I

17:26 read their posts.

17:27 I follow them.

17:28 But I don't think I'm going to pay them five bucks a month, right?

17:31 There are some creators that I see have like a quarter of a million followers.

17:35 And when you click in, only 250 paid them five bucks a month as subscribers.

17:39 That's a huge gap, right?

17:42 So what is a better mechanism for me to support these creators that I love?

17:46 It's cheaper, you know, it's easier and it's less of like a mental burden.

17:49 And so I think as everyone sort of warming up to this idea of subscribing to

17:53 people,

17:54 we think that this is a better way of doing that.

17:56 So you said subscribing to people, which, you know, just to push back a little

18:00 bit,

18:00 we're in this time when AI has made it so easy to generate content.

18:04 Some people might argue that the cost of content creation is crashing to zero.

18:09 What happens in that world?

18:11 What happens to the creator economy?

18:12 That brings me to my most controversial take.

18:15 Great.

18:15 I'll tell a quick story and then I'll go into the answer.

18:19 There's nothing like watching John Mayer play the guitar live.

18:22 It's one of the best music experiences I've had as a DJ.

18:25 I can play guitar, but not really.

18:27 And watching John play is something that is an indescribably valuable

18:31 experience

18:32 that, you know, I've had the privilege of hanging out with him

18:35 and watching him play a couple of times.

18:37 And every time it gives me so much value, like he's received almost no

18:40 compensation

18:41 outside of the ticket, you know, which is some money.

18:44 But realistically, he's given me way more value than the value of that ticket,

18:46 right?

18:47 And the merch.

18:47 And the merch that I don't own yet.

18:48 I saw him perform at Beth Elle Woods, which is like where the real woodstock

18:53 took place.

18:53 He played with the Grateful Dead.

18:54 It was fantastic.

18:55 Wow.

18:55 He's an incredible show.

18:56 Also talked to him about Bond a couple of weeks ago and he got it pretty

18:59 quickly.

19:00 My controversial take as it applies to sort of AI content is

19:03 people will find value in the human curation surrounding that content.

19:09 Because, you know, when things are just like prompt to content,

19:13 you can usually tell like eventually it will be relatively indistinguishable.

19:16 But the biggest variable in creativity is less the actual creative act and more

19:22 curation.

19:23 And it has been for a while.

19:24 So when I sit down to make a song, I'm curating all these different sounds

19:27 to create the final version of the song.

19:29 That's my skill set.

19:31 And that's what feels the most human to the listener.

19:33 And so I think in that sense, people will appreciate the human input.

19:37 It's just that the friction to execute your creative ideas has now gone to zero

19:41 ,

19:41 which brings me to my controversial take, which is that IP as it relates to

19:44 creativity,

19:45 I think is going to completely disappear.

19:48 I don't think that any of the laws are actually enforceable,

19:50 and any of the precedents are enforceable.

19:52 And if you look at the history of copyright, it's not very old.

19:55 Especially it applies to music.

19:56 Master recording rights didn't even exist up until the 70s.

20:00 So no one even owned the underlying recording,

20:02 except for the record labels.

20:03 There were no laws because the labels just owned everything.

20:05 They owned 100%.

20:07 And it was only until the 70s that musicians actually even received

20:10 any portion of income from their recordings.

20:12 They also controlled, you know, the labels control the physical distribution as

20:15 well.

20:15 And so copyright as a concept is kind of becoming antiquated by the existence

20:19 of AI.

20:20 And I actually think it holds us back a lot.

20:22 And so the contrary opinion to this is well, like,

20:24 how do you pay all the people that came up with the ideas first?

20:27 And my response to that is,

20:29 work human beings were kind of unlimited.

20:32 If somebody had an idea 200 years ago, they couldn't even record it.

20:37 What if they influenced all these generations of people that led

20:41 the first copyright holder to their idea?

20:43 They're not getting compensated along the way when copyright didn't exist.

20:46 Johann Sebastian Bach was one of the first musicians of all time

20:49 to have any sort of rights associated with his music.

20:52 His value lives on through his provenance,

20:54 through his reputation of being one of the best composers of all time.

20:58 And so my opinion on this is we just need to create a new value system for

21:02 creativity.

21:03 Copyright is just not it and cannot be in a world of rampant quality level AI

21:07 content.

21:08 That sounds like a very scary prospect, probably, for a lot of creators

21:11 who are used to relying on their IP and making their entire living off of it.

21:16 That's the question is, in a world where they won't be able to do that anymore,

21:18 which I think is inevitable, what do they have?

21:21 Well, they have the human relationship with the people that appreciate their

21:24 work.

21:24 And so we need to come up with an entirely new value system.

21:26 Otherwise, I actually think all of creativity is doomed.

21:30 And so you've got sort of the incumbents that are like,

21:32 we got to pass for our rights and for the Mickey Mouse IP or for this song IP

21:37 that's really big,

21:38 that somebody remakes.

21:39 And in reality, I think it's so egotistic to think

21:42 that we could ever own an idea in the first place.

21:44 This might not be true of biotech, just to juxtapose it for a second.

21:48 When there's a lot of research and friction that goes into an idea,

21:51 patents and stuff, I understand are necessary because without that,

21:54 people aren't even incentivized to innovate, right?

21:56 Because someone could just copy, cat it, and all of your work and money

22:00 and time that you spent on research is irrelevant.

22:03 And so people would be less incentivized to build really complicated things

22:07 if that type of IP law didn't exist.

22:09 But as it implies to creativity where the friction is really going to zero,

22:12 anywhere where friction is zero with the advent of AI,

22:15 I just believe copyright is a huge force against innovation in those spaces.

22:21 This reminds me of a quote from Thomas Jefferson,

22:24 associated with when he was kind of developing the patent system in the US.

22:28 He sort of walked through the logic of it saying,

22:30 if I light my candle to yours, you can take my fire without diminishing mine.

22:35 And he talks about this as like an analogy for the spread of ideas.

22:38 You know, other people can benefit from and use your ideas

22:41 without it hurting you as the creator.

22:43 But it sounds like we need an update on some of these systems

22:48 that we've held for a long time.

22:50 It also reminds me of, you know, I think Charles Dickens,

22:53 he did a famous tour in the US when he was the most popular writer of his time.

22:58 And I think he was horrified because in America,

23:00 everybody would just rip all of his works and they were publishing it,

23:04 left and right, not abiding by any copyright and he thought we were savages.

23:08 But maybe this is the way of the future.

23:10 Yeah, who knows?

23:11 We're going to know in the next five years, that's for sure.

23:13 It's getting really good.

23:14 My controversial take, unrelated, is I've worked in this industry for many

23:20 years now.

23:21 And I've seen that.

23:21 You have including at A6 and C6 and C6. Yes. And I think like now going to the

23:27 builder side

23:28 and like starting to build things, I think what I'm starting to think about is

23:32 I don't

23:33 necessarily think that every, we'll call it crypto product or product built on

23:39 crypto

23:40 needs to be a decentralized protocol with a token.

23:43 And because of how big that word is, everything just kind of gets lumped

23:49 together into that.

23:50 But I think what we're seeing, as I've said before, is the tech is so good that

23:55 you can just build great apps, great businesses that don't necessarily need to

24:00 be decentralized.

24:00 And that's okay.

24:02 Using these rails to create a great experience and net new financial products

24:06 or net new consumer

24:08 experiences. And we're actually seeing that happen, right?

24:10 And so I don't know if I can name names or not, but there are many successful

24:15 crypto companies

24:15 now that are, you know, I wouldn't necessarily call like a decentralized

24:19 protocol, but they're

24:20 using the tech in a way that's really amazing to just create new products in

24:24 the world.

24:25 And that's exciting to see.

24:27 And I hope that that is, you know, something that builders out there who are

24:31 like thinking

24:32 about, like, I want to build a new product.

24:34 They shouldn't be thinking about, oh, do I want to build a crypto product?

24:37 They should be thinking about, I want to build this great thing.

24:39 And crypto is like a tool and a means to get there, but it's not like on

24:44 building a whole

24:44 crypto product, right? Like, it's a layer on the stack.

24:46 Yeah, I think we're seeing this, you know, play out in stablecoins where people

24:51 talk

24:51 about stablecoins, but it's going to just sort of transition to this thing

24:55 where people are

24:55 talking about dollars. Like, it doesn't matter that it's a stablecoin.

24:58 I'm just talking about what it does at the end of the day, which is it

25:00 represents some

25:01 value for you in a reliable way.

25:02 Something around this that I was thinking about the other day is like, what's

25:06 the difference

25:06 between crypto and AI? And I feel like AI.

25:10 I feel like this is a setup for a joke.

25:11 No, it's not.

25:11 It's not like I was really thinking about it.

25:14 It's not, but I was really thinking about like, what's the difference for the

25:17 user?

25:17 And the difference is the user is going to feel the AI, right?

25:22 They're going to feel it in the experience, right?

25:24 As we know, we've seen thousands of these products and whether it's generating

25:27 art or

25:28 talking to charging BT or whatever, right?

25:30 Whereas crypto might actually be completely invisible, right?

25:34 And that's kind of cool.

25:35 I love that it's sort of this front end, back end distinction.

25:37 Yeah, exactly.

25:38 We talked a little bit about Justin and his musical career,

25:41 but I have to also say, Michael, you're a magician.

25:43 Yes.

25:44 How does that inform your work?

25:45 How does it make you think about the creator economy?

25:48 Well, a lot of different ways.

25:49 It's funny.

25:49 Magic and IP has a very crazy history because you can't copyright magic.

25:54 Like you can't like copyright or magic performance.

25:56 Like I could write down something and maybe copyright that,

25:59 but you can't copyright a magic performance.

26:01 And so magic history is littered with people ripping each other off, left and

26:05 right,

26:05 and remixing ideas.

26:07 Like, oh, I might see you perform one thing and take it

26:09 and do it over here and this and that and this.

26:11 It's funny.

26:11 One of my mentors in magic quite I respect immensely.

26:14 His name is Aussie Wind.

26:15 He's incredible.

26:15 Yeah, you haven't seen a show.

26:16 Oh, he's amazing.

26:17 You have the best.

26:18 You have to see him.

26:18 He actually posed this question to me one time,

26:21 which was like, you know, you can go to a magic store and pay $20

26:25 for like a trick deck of cards or whatever.

26:27 And, you know, just do the same trick as anybody else.

26:29 It's the same trick, right?

26:31 But what's the difference between like a good and bad magician, right?

26:34 And they came down to like, what else are we saying?

26:36 It's the person, right?

26:38 When Aussie Wind performs trick A and I perform trick A,

26:42 him performing is going to be like significantly better.

26:46 Like a thousand times better because he's just amazing, right?

26:48 And so it's funny because in the world of magic,

26:51 people kind of gave up.

26:52 They're like, we can't even copyright this stuff.

26:54 Like it's people are just going to get ripped off, left and right.

26:57 And so it forces the performers to be even more unique,

27:00 to like differentiate themselves.

27:02 Because otherwise you're just the cookie putter of like,

27:04 anyone else that can go to a magic store.

27:05 So it's almost like sort of the status quo for the magic world

27:10 is kind of what Justin was saying.

27:12 Like that this is where all art is headed, right?

27:16 That like, you're not going to have this defensibility

27:18 around your IP, your product, your ideas.

27:21 Right.

27:21 And it's about the human aspect, the human element

27:24 that you bring to it that people are going to connect with.

27:27 What's that amazing quote?

27:28 Anything, any sufficiently advanced technologies,

27:30 indistinguishable from magic, right?

27:31 Yes, Arthur C. Clark.

27:32 Yeah, amazing quote.

27:33 It's true, like, magicians are always like two to three steps

27:36 ahead tech-wise from like the rest of the world.

27:39 And I'm not going to explain what that is on a podcast,

27:42 because they don't be really feeling secret.

27:43 It's about like, I'll just say that there are like tech things

27:46 in magic that I was playing with over 10 years ago

27:50 in high school that now are becoming consumer products

27:53 that we have in our pocket.

27:54 Really?

27:55 And I can't use them as tricks anymore.

27:56 A hundred percent.

27:57 Yeah.

27:57 Can you give any examples?

27:58 Like, this sounds kind of crazy.

28:00 OK, the new meta glasses.

28:01 Yeah.

28:02 Right.

28:02 You have this on your wrist, right?

28:04 And you can type by drawing with your hands, right?

28:08 Right.

28:09 Magicians were playing with that.

28:11 Not not the exact tech, but like--

28:13 Conceptually.

28:14 Conceptually things dancing around that using technology,

28:16 like, you know, 10 years ago.

28:19 Oh, that's fascinating.

28:20 Yeah, which is really fun.

28:21 Inspirations for you guys.

28:23 Who do you look up to?

28:24 Who do you admire?

28:25 Who personally inspires your own creative pursuits?

28:28 I already mentioned John Mayer from a creativity standpoint,

28:31 and I would say one of my friends, who I also look up to,

28:33 Zed, who's also always been very tech-forward.

28:36 Fantastic DJ, mega-hit maker.

28:39 On the sort of tech side, I would say,

28:41 I think Brian Chesky is just a really great human being,

28:45 and has done some pretty amazing things

28:47 in the face of a lot of challenges.

28:48 And to see how Airbnb just revolutionized

28:51 in so many things, right?

28:53 And changed our perspective on how the world works.

28:55 I can only hope for us to sort of do that from a crypto lens.

28:59 Hmm.

29:00 I'll bring it back to magic.

29:01 I'll give three magicians that anyone watching

29:03 should, like, totally look up and watch their stuff,

29:06 because they've inspired me.

29:07 And I'll choose ones that are alive today,

29:08 so that, you know, you can all check it out.

29:10 So, obviously, Aussie went, like, for sure 100%,

29:12 the best Doug McKenzie and David Blaine.

29:16 And I love them all for very different reasons.

29:19 Doug, specifically, is sort of, like, the tech-forward magician.

29:22 And so he's, like, the most advanced on that front.

29:25 And David Blaine, he's just incredibly inspiring,

29:27 because he just pushes himself so hard.

29:31 And, like, you watch him perform, and you're, like,

29:33 listen, if he could, you know, stab a stake through his hand,

29:37 like, I can definitely, like, do this other thing.

29:39 I remember him trying to hold his breath under water

29:41 for, like, however many minutes, that's the same.

29:42 Nine, yeah, exactly.

29:43 Nine, ten minutes.

29:44 Exactly, exactly.

29:45 You guys have time for a lightning round?

29:46 Let's do it.

29:47 Sure.

29:48 What is the worst piece of advice

29:49 that you've ever gotten as a founder?

29:52 This is a very specific take,

29:53 but just hire smart people.

29:55 They'll figure it out, I think, is wrong.

29:57 Especially in any blockchain adjacent

30:00 or blockchain-specific industry,

30:02 you must use the product to have

30:04 the right cultural perspective.

30:06 And I think that just hiring a great engineer

30:08 and hoping to train them in the ways of crypto,

30:10 unless they're truly passionate about crypto, it doesn't work.

30:12 So I would say that's, like, the worst advice I've gotten.

30:14 I was going to say, that's exactly what I was going to say.

30:16 That was going to steal hands.

30:17 Oh, shit.

30:17 So, yeah, only one of that.

30:19 No need to name names.

30:20 What is your biggest productivity hack?

30:22 Voice notes.

30:23 Like, voice note to AI summary.

30:25 So, like, I use meeting notes on Zoom.

30:27 I don't always look at them, but, like, if I ever have an idea,

30:30 now I know I can just, instead of recording it, transcribing it,

30:33 and then leaving it in its current form,

30:35 I can have AI take the idea, refine it,

30:38 and now it's there in my notes.

30:40 And I think that's been really helpful

30:43 for me recalling thoughts and things that I,

30:47 you know, we're just thinking about all this stuff all day long.

30:49 And then there's a lot of things we think about.

30:50 And so being able to distill all of that,

30:52 I think with some combination of voice,

30:54 an AI is great for me. I use, like, a lot of, like,

30:58 AI generated voice for, like, reading blogs and stuff.

31:01 And so I have this pipeline where I have, like, a Chrome extension

31:04 with Speechify, and it hooks into my email.

31:06 So when I'm reading emails, I can just have it, like, be read to me.

31:09 And if I like things, I can, like, another Chrome extension,

31:12 which, like, takes a snippet of, like, a quote or a concept that I really like,

31:16 and then puts it right into Obsidian,

31:18 which is, like, the other tool that I know a lot,

31:20 every day, six, since it uses it.

31:21 Yes.

31:21 I mean, a lot of people look at you, so it's like this whole flow.

31:24 One of my messages.

31:25 I'm, like, Speechify to, you know, Obsidian.

31:28 Obsidian's, like, note-taking app, basically.

31:30 I just use Apple Notes.

31:32 Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

31:33 Obsidian's, like, the greatest note-taking app of all time.

31:36 I tried using Obsidian.

31:37 I also reverted back out.

31:38 Just so used to it, yeah.

31:39 Just going with the basics.

31:41 I've been asking people for a book recommendation.

31:43 Given your work, feel free to recommend a song too,

31:45 or whatever kind of art you think people should admire.

31:49 I think maybe the book that I've read recently that, like,

31:54 I stopped and took so many notes.

31:57 I'll give you two books again.

31:58 Yeah.

31:58 I took so many notes, and, like, it really,

32:00 maybe think about a lot of things.

32:01 A lot of things was the Machiavellians.

32:03 Oh, yeah.

32:03 That one.

32:05 And then, as it relates to, like, tech and crypto,

32:08 and, like, how do you wrap your head around this whole thing of Bitcoin,

32:12 and crypto, and stablecoins, and dollars, and the Fed,

32:15 and money printing, and, like, how do you wrap that all?

32:17 Lynn Alden's book, I think it's called Broken Money.

32:21 Yeah, Broken Money.

32:22 Those are two really good books.

32:23 I've yet to read, and definitely should.

32:26 Fantastic books.

32:27 One on economics, one on politics.

32:28 Yeah.

32:28 I've read the Machiavellians.

32:30 This is a beloved book within A16Z.

32:33 Mark Andreessen talks about it all the time.

32:34 Yeah, yeah.

32:35 That's where I got it from, though.

32:36 Yeah.

32:36 It says a lot about politics.

32:38 If you want to understand it, you can...

32:39 Definitely.

32:40 Learn a lot from it.

32:41 My book was a gift from my brother, actually, on my birthday.

32:45 The courage to be disliked.

32:47 It's fantastic.

32:48 And at a time in my life, where a lot of people on the internet

32:52 disliked me, it was a very, very great read,

32:54 and changed my perspective on a lot of things.

32:56 So that's up there for me on books.

32:58 Who's the same word about that?

33:00 I DJed at the Presidential Inauguration,

33:02 and a lot of people hate Trump.

33:03 That was this January.

33:04 Dead Mouse, another DJ, said something negative,

33:07 and then a bunch of other people piled on.

33:09 And I actually worked with racial Horowitz

33:11 on my very politically correct response

33:13 on what it means to be proud to be an American.

33:14 And I would have DJed for a camel.

33:16 I would have DJed for any president if they ask,

33:18 because I'm a proud American.

33:19 I love the freedoms we have in this country.

33:21 And that says nothing about my political beliefs

33:23 about immigration, just because I'm DJing in inauguration.

33:26 It doesn't mean you can make all these assumptions

33:27 about my beliefs on other things.

33:29 Also, pro-crypto president is probably good for my shareholders

33:32 and our work, but it's beyond that.

33:35 And so I read the book around that time,

33:36 and it was very helpful to be.

33:37 That's a good pick for artists who are, you know,

33:39 in today's day and age, when you're trying to be loved

33:42 by everybody and gain the biggest following possible.

33:45 The best time to read that book, like you should buy it

33:48 and put it on your shelf, but don't read it

33:50 until you're feeling like really down.

33:52 Because that's what it's gonna happen most in back.

33:54 Yeah, probably.

33:54 If you're happy and you're like, flying high,

33:56 you're like, I'm really glad.

33:57 It won't really stir.

33:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

33:59 That's actually good.

34:00 That's actually a good tip.

34:01 On the music front, you know, it's a cliche answer,

34:04 but, you know, a lot of people spend a lot of time listening

34:07 to individual songs.

34:08 And I think that the album is a lost art, right?

34:11 When you can listen to something undistracted

34:13 for 45 minutes to an hour and 15 minutes

34:16 and really understand the story that an artist is trying to tell,

34:18 I highly recommend people listen to albums.

34:20 And then it's relatively a cliche answer,

34:23 but I think that the latest Rufus Dusseau album

34:25 is one of their best.

34:26 Their previous albums are also incredible.

34:28 I just really, really love the new one.

34:29 There's a couple songs on there

34:30 that I think push a lot of boundaries, sonically.

34:34 And it's definitely a two-listen.

34:36 Amazing.

34:37 Well, I have to plug this actually.

34:38 Our podcast is using your music, Justin.

34:41 Thank you for supplying it to us.

34:42 A track called Shine That You Created.

34:44 A track that never came out that now is in good hands.

34:46 And now we'll be listening to you by anybody

34:48 who tunes into A16Z Crypto's Media.

34:51 We love it.

34:51 Thank you for that.

34:52 And I recommend that to anybody.

34:54 Nice.

34:54 Final question in the light year round,

34:56 what is the smallest hill that you will die on?

34:59 I have a good one.

35:00 Yeah.

35:00 No outside clothes on Inside Furniture.

35:03 Fantastic.

35:04 You and my wife would get along very well.

35:05 That's, okay, that's a really good one.

35:07 I'll do one for Tech then.

35:09 I, to this day, still believe that

35:12 an NFT, or specifically like ERC721 or 1155,

35:16 is one of the coolest technological innovations

35:19 for representing digital objects on the internet.

35:21 And they are going to be everywhere.

35:23 So regardless of what people say in the media

35:25 what the headlines are, they are not dead.

35:27 What are people getting wrong about it?

35:28 They make all these assumptions,

35:30 I think, on the speculative front.

35:31 They think of it like the internet was a passing fad

35:34 that no one was going to use,

35:35 but yet it's an information superhighway

35:37 that's really valuable to everyone.

35:38 I think NFTs will sort of follow that arc

35:40 that the internet did,

35:42 where digital ownership is really meaningful.

35:44 The Instagram verified badge actually meant a lot for a while

35:47 and it's a combination of signal and digital identity.

35:50 And NFTs still do that today.

35:52 There were just a lot of projects

35:53 that maybe abuse some of the most popular narratives

35:57 to make a lot of money.

35:58 And I think those narratives remain true

36:00 that digital ownership is one of the most important things

36:03 to think about in the future.

36:05 And especially as it applies to the previous conversation

36:08 we had about AI and friction going to zero,

36:10 having representations of who originated something

36:13 of provenance, of a transparent ledger

36:16 of how that digital object has moved,

36:19 I think is just such an inevitability,

36:20 whether that's on the identity level

36:22 or the artistic level,

36:23 they're going to be everywhere.

36:24 It's just a matter of time.

36:25 I think it was Eddie Lazar said this at my time of day 16z

36:28 and I love this, it was great.

36:29 Yeah, he adds in our CTO, he's great.

36:31 Yeah, I forgot what the topic was,

36:32 but it was really like NFTs and ownership.

36:34 And he goes, you know, a side effect

36:38 of true ownership is ease of transferability.

36:42 And when you have some of this easily transferable,

36:45 you're going to get a lot of people transferring it

36:47 and trading, right?

36:48 But that's not the core thing, that's a side effect, right?

36:50 The core is true ownership.

36:52 And I like that, I like that frame.

36:54 It's like training.

36:55 True ownership, that's something we can all get behind.

36:56 Yes.

36:57 Michael, Justin, thank you so much for being here

36:59 and for taking the time out to chat.

37:00 Amazing.

37:01 Thanks for having us.

37:01 This is great.

37:02 Thank you.

37:03 Q shine.

37:04 Yeah, that's right.

37:08 [MUSIC PLAYING]

Moon

· 3d

@Bitwise总裁泰迪·富萨罗（Teddy Fusaro）认为，互联网没有停摆，全球市场却在午后突然停盘，这简直太荒谬了。

“区块链从未停摆。以太坊仍在交易，Coinbase仍在运行，Kraken也在运行。我们这里，人们仍在下单。全球金融市场在周五下午中段、傍晚就停盘，这在我看来简直不可思议，不是吗？”

“显而易见的未来正开始被世界其他地区所认可。《华尔街日报》、《金融时报》都在报道：‘哦，你可以在周六通过Hyperliquid交易期货，交易原油期货。’” #加密货币 #eth

https://x.com/therollupco/status/2034037011720347728?s=20

中文 English

0:00 其实挺好笑的，大多数周五晚上，当我还没完全收工时，

0:07 我会看时间，

0:08 发现已经晚上六点了，然后我会发推说，

0:12 我会说，

0:13 一些关注我很久的粉丝会觉得挺有趣，

0:16 ，

0:16 我会说现在是6:30，股市已经闭市两个半小时了。

0:21 ，

0:22 但在加密市场感觉还正是白天，不是吗？

0:25 比特币还在交易，区块链从不停止，以太坊还在交易，

0:29 ，

0:30 Coinbase还在运行，Kraken还在运行，还有人在不停地下单。

0:33 ，

0:35 这对我来说很疯狂，我从2018年就开始做加密工作了，

0:39 ，

0:40 我觉得全球金融市场居然会在周五下午中晚段关闭，真是不可思议。

0:46 ，

0:49 我们这是在做什么呢？互联网不停，股市却关了，为什么？

0:52 人们得下班，银行周末关门，转账时间也变长了。

0:57 ，

0:58 金融基础设施还跟不上现有技术的现实。

1:03 ，

1:04 很长一段时间我一直觉得很荒谬，交易居然会就此停止，

1:12 ，

1:14 现在如果你周六晚上想交易风险资产，

1:19 ，

1:20 唯一能做的就是交易比特币，我认为随着Hyper-Liquid的崛起，

1:24 他们在上新油料期货等产品上取得了巨大进展，

1:27 那个明显的未来正在被世界其他地方认知。

1:33 ，

1:34 《华尔街日报》《金融时报》等媒体都在说，“你周六还能在Hyper-Liquid交易油料期货？”

1:40 ，

1:44 答案是肯定的，这让我想起你问的，Robby，

1:46 这会不会很久才能发展起来？

1:53 ，

1:55 作为创业者和技术人员，我对此还没发生感到很不耐烦，

2:01 ，

2:02 但同时对我来说未来已经到来，只是分布还不均匀。

0:00 It's kind of funny actually, most Friday nights when I'm not quite wrapping up

0:07 work for the week,

0:08 I'll look down and it'll be like six o'clock at night and I'll tweet and I'll

0:12 say,

0:13 and some of the followers that I've had for a while will get a kick out of this

0:16 ,

0:16 I'll say it's 6.30 and the stock market has been closed for two and a half

0:21 hours.

0:22 In crypto, it feels like it's the middle of the day, right?

0:25 Bitcoin is still trading, the blockchain is never down, Ethereum is still

0:29 trading,

0:30 Coinbase is still ticking, Kraken is still ticking, we have people who are

0:33 still putting orders in.

0:35 It seems crazy to me, and it has, once you've worked in crypto for a long

0:39 enough time,

0:40 I've been at this since 2018, it seems crazy to me that the global financial

0:46 markets shut down

0:49 mid-afternoon, late afternoon on Friday, doesn't it?

0:52 What are we doing here? The internet doesn't shut down, the stock market shuts

0:57 down, why?

0:58 People have to sign off from work, it's banks closed for the weekend and it

1:03 takes longer to send money.

1:04 It's just not, the financial infrastructure has not caught up to the reality of

1:12 the available technology.

1:14 So for a long time I've had this view that it's kind of crazy that this is what

1:19 happens,

1:20 that things just stop, and now if you want to trade risk on a Saturday night,

1:24 the only thing you could trade was Bitcoin, and I think with hyper-liquid,

1:27 and the substantial progress that they've made with listing new things like oil

1:33 futures,

1:34 that obvious future is starting to become recognized by the rest of the world.

1:40 The Wall Street Journal Financial Times is like, "Oh, you can trade oil futures

1:44 on hyper-liquid on a Saturday?"

1:46 And the answer is yes, and it reminds me of your question, Robby, is this going

1:53 to take a long time to develop or what?

1:55 And as an entrepreneur and technologist, I feel very impatient that it hasn't

2:01 happened yet,

2:02 but it also seems very obvious to me that the future is here, it's just not

2:06 evenly distributed.

Moon

· 3d

#AWS 刚刚发布了一篇关于 #x402 及 #Agentic Commerce 在金融服务领域应用的深度解析。了解自主代理如何通过 @base 上的 #USDC 经由 HTTP 支付数据和服务费用。文章包含完整的参考架构： - AgentCore（代理端） - @cloudfront / Lambda@Edge（提供商端）。

Moon

· 3d

#AWS just published a deep dive on #x402 + #Agentic Commerce in financial services.

Learn how autonomous agents can pay for data and services over HTTP using #USDC on @base .

Post includes a full reference architecture:

- AgentCore (agent side)

- @cloudfront / Lambda@Edge (provider side).

https://x.com/kleffew94/status/2033597507964735976?s=20

Moon

· 3d

#AWS just published a deep dive on #x402 + #Agentic Commerce in financial services.

Learn how autonomous agents can pay for data and services over HTTP using #USDC on @base .

Post includes a full reference architecture:

- AgentCore (agent side)

- @cloudfront / Lambda@Edge (provider side).

https://x.com/kleffew94/status/2033597507964735976?s=20

Moon

· 4d

#Robinhood 首席执行官弗拉德·特内夫表示，预测市场不仅仅是交易场所。

“它们正被用作‘真相机器’。”

“传统新闻媒体的替代品。”

“越来越多的美国人开始转向预测市场，以厘清真相或判断未来可能发生的事情。”

“它们正遍地开花。”

@vladtenev

https://x.com/Bankless/status/2033574297864937856?s=20

中文 English

0:00 我们一直看好预测市场，但即便如此，过去几年的增长还是让我们非常

0:04 惊讶。

0:05 增长速度超出预期。

0:07 现在，支持者，比如我们银行名单上的人，会说这些是信息

0:12 市场，

0:13 它们对社会有益，是新闻和事件等的真相机器，

0:17 基于权益的投票。

0:18 但也有一批人反对预测市场，发出一些

0:19 抗议声。

0:24 有人说这只是另一种赌博，

0:24 对社会未必有益，

0:29 会产生上瘾，

0:30 可能导致内幕交易，所以预测市场也有一些

0:36 批评。

0:37 你怎么看？

0:39 在最高层面上，

0:40 预测市场对社会是好是坏？

0:44 它们是好事还是坏事？

0:46 我认为它们对社会有益，很多人没意识到的是，

0:53 关于

0:53 预测市场，虽然它们上的交易量确实存在，

0:59 交易量

1:00 远小于股票市场或期权市场，

1:05 但它们还有更广泛的用途，作为真相机器，

1:08 是传统新闻媒体的替代品。

1:13 越来越多的美国人开始依赖预测市场

1:15 来判断什么是真实的、什么可能发生。

1:19 过去人们通过新闻媒体获取这些信息，但随着新闻业务

1:24 模式的变化，

1:26 新闻媒体越来越远离尽快告诉你真相和信息，

1:28 而是更倾向于拖延信息传递，让你只是被娱乐，观看更多广告。

1:33 这就留下了一个空缺，

1:34 即：如果我想知道某件事并得到真实信息，该用什么机制？

1:38 我认为预测市场很好地填补了这个空白，

1:40 你会看到它们会越来越普及。

1:44 现代媒体一团糟。

1:45 每个平台都有偏见，但并非每个新闻消费者都意识到他们消费的平台有偏见。

1:51 这就是为什么当我想了解真相时，我会去Polymarket，世界上最无偏见的

1:56 新闻平台。

1:58 从Polymarket.com获取你的信息。

0:00 We've been longtime bullish prediction markets, but even we have been very

0:04 surprised at the

0:05 growth of the last couple of years.

0:07 Now, proponents, like probably us on bank lists, say that these are information

0:12 markets, that

0:13 these are good for society, that there are truth machines for things like news

0:17 and events,

0:18 stake-weighted voting around this.

0:19 But there's a crowd that's kind of anti-prediction markets and some clamoring

0:24 about this.

0:24 Some people say it's just another form of gambling, it's not necessarily good

0:29 for society,

0:30 it creates addictions, it incense maybe insider trading, so there's some

0:36 criticism of prediction

0:37 markets as well.

0:39 What's your take?

0:40 At the highest level on prediction markets, are these things good for society?

0:44 Are they bad for society?

0:46 I think they're good for society and I think what a lot of people don't realize

0:53 about

0:53 prediction markets is, sure, they're trading and volume that's happening on

0:59 them.

1:00 The trading volume is much smaller than it is in equities markets or options

1:05 markets,

1:08 but there's also a much broader use case of these being used as truth machines,

1:13 as being

1:15 alternatives to traditional news media.

1:19 More and more Americans are increasingly turning to prediction markets to have

1:24 clarity on what's

1:26 true or what's likely to happen.

1:28 It used to be that they would go to news media for this, but as the business

1:33 model of news

1:34 media has gone further and further away from giving you the truth and giving

1:38 you the information

1:40 or what's likely to happen as quickly as possible and more toward how can we

1:44 delay you getting

1:45 the information so that you're just entertained and can watch more ads.

1:51 That's opened up a hole for the original purpose, which is let's say I want to

1:56 know something

1:58 and get the actual information.

2:01 What's the mechanism for that?

2:02 I think prediction markets have filled in that gap quite well and you'll see

2:10 over time

2:10 that they just proliferate everywhere.

2:14 Modern media is a mess.

2:15 Every platform has a bias, but not every news consumer is aware of the platform

2:18 's bias

2:19 that they're consuming.

2:20 That's why when I want to learn the truth, I go to Polymarket, the world's most

2:23 unbiased

2:24 news platform.

2:25 Get your signal from Polymarket.com.

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